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Davis speech from Millions Missing. Some new info on metabolic trap hypothesis

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Murph, May 13, 2018.

  1. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I have nothing against a drug that could work, but so many immune drugs fix one problem then create another AND that's only if you can afford them... Of the top 5 drugs (by revenue), FOUR are immune drugs.. Annual Recurring Revenue = $32+ billion... They have terrible side effects... Lots of examples, but check out the link re Glenn Frey below... His wikipedia page used to explicitly say the name of the drug he took (Enbrel?) but it was taken off the page.. No doubt due to litigation threats.. Fixed his RA, and triggered serious gut problems that lead to his death...ugh.. First do no harm, a-holes..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_selling_pharmaceutical_products

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Frey#Illness_and_death
     
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  2. Pink

    Pink Senior Member

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    Is there any way for us to access these drs and resarch centers for treatment, or are they only for research?
     
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Stanford does clinical treatment. However there are no highly effective treatments just now, though some patients seem to do very well. This is less a promise of treatment than of research, and these grants are not for clinical treatment. Its about research. If you live close by then it might pay to keep an eye on what the local centre is doing. You might be able to sign up for a study. In time those studies may become clinical studies, instead of investigative studies. That means you might be able to sign up for clinical trials. In those trials everyone might get a treatment, or they might be divided into placebo and treatment, which means a fifty-fifty chance of an experimental treatment in a lot of cases.

    If in an investigative study however you might well learn things that are wrong that most doctors would never guess, and can then take that information to your more regular treating doctors. They may not know what to do with that information though.
     
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  4. Murph

    Murph :)

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    Last edited: May 15, 2018
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  5. Murph

    Murph :)

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    Ron Davis says they have the hypothesis, the money and materials to test it, and a plan to have results "by the end of summer" so I think this skepticism is uninformed.

    Furthermore it is clear they are thinking hard about the limits of the hypothesis test they are doing, which will involve attempting to generate the metabolic trap in peripheral blood mononuclear cells. The question of whether those cells are representative enough to conclusively prove the presence or absence of the trap is something weighing heavily on the mind of Robert Phair. It is possible that they will also have to test muscle cells, which will involve biopsying some people.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
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  6. Neunistiva

    Neunistiva Senior Member

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    Just a little note, there are 3 research centers, the fourth one will just be for collecting their data, they won't do any research.
     
  7. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    One of the scientists working w Dr Unutmaz @ Jax worked w Ron Davis, and she's a microbiome expert:

    "Dr. Oh's main research interests focus on the human microbiome—the diverse bacteria, fungi, and viruses that inhabit our bodies—for its potential to deliver treatments for infectious and other diseases. Dr. Oh comes to the microbiome world by way of fungal chemogenomics with technologist and geneticist Dr. Ronald Davis at Stanford and comparative genomics of wild wine yeast at the FAS Center for Systems Biology at Harvard. Prior to joining the Jackson Laboratory, she was a postdoctoral fellow at the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI) of the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Oh's research, exploring the complex interactions between the host and its microbes has lead to important implications for the contribution of the microbiome to disease."
     
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  8. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    There are actually 4 research centers plus the data management center, I think. :)

    [​IMG]
    Jim
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There are other things that happened in the 1950s that could also help explain the rise of autoimmune diseases:

    Poliovirus vaccine was introduced in the late 1950s, and it is speculated that because this eradicated poliovirus infection in Western countries, that allowed coxsackievirus B infections to become more fierce (because natural infection with poliovirus early in life may offer some immunological cross protection against other enteroviruses such as coxsackievirus B and echovirus).

    In particular, the poliovirus vaccine is speculated to be responsible for the rise in type 1 diabetes, which is linked to coxsackievirus B1 and B4. And it's possible the poliovirus vaccine might have caused the massive rise in ME/CFS incidence that apparently occurred in the 1980s. ME/CFS is linked to coxsackievirus B and echovirus.

    See this thread: Did the introduction of the polio vaccine cause the massive rise in ME/CFS incidence in the 1980s?

    So this underlines the urgent need to introduce a coxsackievirus B vaccine.



    And pesticide usage increased dramatically in the Western world from the 1960s onwards (the graph on this webpage). Pesticide exposure has been linked to various autoimmune diseases. So that could also help explain the rise in autoimmunity.



    Also, if we assume that bacteria and antibiotics do play some role in the increased prevalence of autoimmune disease, it may be the bacterial infections themselves rather than the antibiotics used to treat them that are the culprits. Prior to antibiotics, a lot more people with bacterial infections would have just died of the infection, and therefore even if the bacterium they caught were to trigger autoimmunity, no one would know, because the person may not have survived the infection.

    25% of OCD cases are thought to be due to an autoimmune condition triggered by Streptococcus bacteria, via molecular mimicry So that's one example of how bacteria might be triggering autoimmunity.



    I came across this article explaining a theory that the aminoglycoside class of antibiotics might play a role in triggering autoimmune disease due to the way they alter gene expression in human cells. Apparently aminoglycosides will cause human cells to read through stop codons in the human genetic code, producing a longer protein product, which it is speculated may then help trigger autoimmunity.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  10. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    @Hip yes I have sometimes wondered if some of it's to do with survival of the fittest. How many of us would have survived our childhoods without antibiotics or with the protection provided by vaccinations against polio diphtheria whooping cough etc?
     
  11. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    If I recall correctly, and maybe someone can comment on this further, the 1934 LA County Hospital outbreak was associated with an early polio vaccine that never made it to market. Or am I misremembering?This hospital was using animals to study pathogens, and working on early vaccines from what I recollect.
     
  12. nryanh94

    nryanh94

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    So does Ron think that CFS is multiple illnesses that all course the same metabolic trap and can be fixed by the same thing, or multiple illnesses that require multiple different treatments.


    If it’s the latter then that’s depressing
     
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  13. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I think there are many things that have and are contributing to the high increases in autoimmunity and immune system diseases in the last 50-60 years.

    As you said, pesticides are probably one. I think antibiotics are probably the biggest though.......

    I think this paper explains how OCD gets triggered by streptococcal infections very well-

    LINK

    I think the same thing happens in some cases of lyme disease. People are treated with weeks or months of antibiotics.

    Creating significant dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability, causing post treatment lyme disease syndrome.

    EDIT-
    LINK

    Jim
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That paper is from the journal Medical Hypotheses, which presents hypotheses about the causes of a disease, rather than evidence for the cause. So the ideas in the Medical Hypotheses journal are not considered fact, just theories to consider.

    The idea that OCD can in some cases be caused by autoimmunity triggered by Streptococcus infection is also a hypothesis at this stage, although there is supporting evidence for this particular theory.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  15. Neunistiva

    Neunistiva Senior Member

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    No, as you can see from the article @Murph linked

    This Center will be one of three ME/CFS Collaborative Research Centers (CRCs) that will be awarded, together with a Data Management and Coordinating Center (DMCC).
    Same was said by NIH itself:

    The grants will support the creation of a consortium made up of three Collaborative Research Centers (CRC) and a Data Management Coordinating Center (DMCC).

    If you look at the map you will see the "fourth" research center is actually Dr. Ron Davis at Stanford.

    NIH still hasn't given them a single dollar, it's all financed from our donations. We are just lucky that Pineapple Fund gave $5 million and that Dr. Davis is sharing data freely with any researcher in the world who requests it, otherwise it would be impossible.

    But that center is not part of the NIH's collaborative, although I am sure Dr. Davis will give them any data they want. It's a great pity though, we need a lot more than just 3 centers.

    What might become a fourth center is actually a Canadian center which will join forces with NIH. The maximum amount for the grant is $280,000 per year, so that's not much either.
     
  16. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. So that map I posted is wrong in saying Stanford and Ron Davis are part of the collaborative? I didn't make that map by the way.:)

    EDIT- Ron Davis and Stanford are part of the collaborative just not being funded by the NIH is how I understand it?

    LINK

    Jim
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  17. Neunistiva

    Neunistiva Senior Member

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    I don't think it's just about the funding

    These new centres also bring researchers together to form a critical mass, and the three NIH centres are themselves working together, with plans to collaborate on at least one joint project.
     
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  18. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Are they giving any hints as to what that one joint project might be?

    Jim
     
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  19. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Hip

    my understanding of the hygiene hypothesis is that a confluence of factors creates the problem; so, agreed that it's more than antibiotics
     
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  20. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    I haven't read the above in detail. It's been some time since I looked at Chris Armstrong's research. At one stage he was looking at low gut pH (acidity closer to neutral than it should be). He demonstrated high levels of volatile fatty acids in your blood which indicated that food was being processed lower down in the digestive tract. Interestingly he proposed that once you had this problem then you were stuck with it (negative feedback loop). Lower gut acidity leads to lower stomach acid production, which leads to altered metabolism, which results in lower acid production. He did a webinar possibly December 2016 and published a number of papers all readily available (and reviewed on Cort Johnson I guess).
     
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