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Creepy Crawley: Obesity in adolescents with chronic fatigue syndrome

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
Actually, come to think of it, fat is a thing that psychosocial researchers enjoy mentioning. They like to subtly imply that the fatness relates to the same psychosocial factors that caused the illness. But they never say so outright, they just leave that implication "hanging". I've seen fat mentioned in related to psychogenic nonepileptic seizures as well, in the same way.

(I refuse to call this approach biopsychosocial, that's just not accurate. Its primary characteristic is that it emphasises psychological and social causes of illness, over and above the biological. So let's call it what it really is).
 

J.G

Senior Member
Messages
162
Can you explain why you think their conclusion is vacuous? Given the results they found, what sort of non-vacuous conclusion would you propose?

Therein lies the rub. The world is filled with relationships that Fisherian statistics will mark as significant. Given the complex physiopathology of ME/CFS, one can cherry-pick to cross-correlate two phenomena. That doesn't however mean any causation exists. And even if there is causation, statistics leaves its direction unspecified.

I cannot judge the merits of the paper's application of quantitative methods, which appears transparent. But I do find the paper's direction of enquiry disappointing, which ignores a profound, extremely troubling broader medical context. Because of this I can't escape the sentiment that the paper contributes to trivialising ME/CFS. A darker part of my mind would argue that the chief reason this paper got published in its current form is because of ME/CFS' lingering stigma.
 
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J.G

Senior Member
Messages
162
Actually, come to think of it, fat is a thing that psychosocial researchers enjoy mentioning. They like to subtly imply that the fatness relates to the same psychosocial factors that caused the illness.

Right. I don't want to pass judgment on the authors' intentions. Moreover, there could always be some interesting connection between ME and obesity that we're entirely unaware of.

But science doesn't exist in a vacuum. Perception matters. Narrative matters. It is a very delicate time for ME/CFS. Having this obesity note left hanging in the air is unhelpful - the uninitiated might connect the dots in the straightest possible line. And that detracts from the emerging, deeply biological narrative that may lead to a cure for ME/CFS. But maybe I'm overstating the paper's impact. I hope so.
 
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Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Narrative matters. It is a very delicate time for ME/CFS. Having this obesity note left hanging in the air is unhelpful - the uninitiated might connect the dots in the straightest possible line. And that detracts from the emerging, deeply biological narrative that may lead to a cure for ME/CFS. But maybe I'm overstating the paper's impact. I hope so.

Especially when it comes to growing children.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Another stunning piece of from Crawley. Kids who are ill and unable to do much sometimes put on weight. I would have been interested by figures for those that loose weight because they feel too sick to eat much and just don't feel hungry (my child).

I would worry about those in the 'cfs' group for the population study because the last paper looked at who was tired and diagnosed them with CFS. Then it asked who was depressed and found quite high rates of depression in the CFS group. In other words the logic in their diagnosis was so poor it made the paper meaningless.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
She's obviously not aware that lack of exercise is known to help lead to obesity :rolleyes: . Its sad that Crawley cant understand some basic life fact that patients who are housebound and cant exercise or play sports due to thier disability, could be more likely to end up with weight issues.
 
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Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
She's obviously not aware that lack of exercise is known to help lead to obesity :rolleyes: . Its sad that Crawley cant understand some basic life fact that patients who are housebound and cant exercise or play sports due to thier disability, could be more likely to end up with weight issues.
Don't know about anyone else, @taniaaust1, but I used to be a fit, slim fitness instructor pre-CFS, and now I'm a bit of a hippo!
 

Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051
Perhaps they would do well to look at the reasons for appetite being, for some, unaffected whilst capacity for burning energy is greatly reduced.

I guess I'm not the only one who's thinking goes: no energy....... just need a sit down and a cup of tea and a biscuit.......that always used to work. Never does, of course.
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
I guess I'm not the only one who's thinking goes: no energy....... just need a sit down and a cup of tea and a biscuit.......that always used to work. Never does, of course.
I do that too,, @Chrisb. I still somehow imagine that something sweet will boost my energy. Just ends up making me feel slightly full as well as tired. But I never seem to learn that lesson, I do the same again the next time.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
Don't know about anyone else, @taniaaust1, but I used to be a fit, slim fitness instructor pre-CFS, and now I'm a bit of a hippo!
Ironically, I was 15 stone pre-illness, but am now a trim 10 1/2 after 18 years of illness, largely because weight drops off me whenever things get bad. Where's my study Esther? What forms of control am I practising to see my weight drop several pounds overnight?
 

J.G

Senior Member
Messages
162
I've had another look at this paper, and what upsets me is its subtle strategic ambiguity. I can't decide whether or it is an honest exploratory research article, or carries an insidious subtext of agenda-science.

In particular, I find it odd that the piece refrains from commenting on causality between obesity and ME/CFS, making only this basic observation:
We do not know why there is an association between CFS/ME and obesity in those attending clinic and while the cross-sectional design limits our ability to make causal conclusions, this association could be a result of reduced physical activity levels.

Well, d'oh! By stopping here, and not devoting any ink as to why activity levels might be reduced, the paper cleverly skirts around the wider medical context. The article seems explicitly set up to not raise reader awareness of a broader ME picture, thus luring them into connecting the two dots - obesity and ME/CFS - that it does provide. Broadening the picture would simultaneously devalue the article's findings and undermine any hidden agendas. You can practically see the media jumping to conclusions, headlines screaming 'new research connects obesity and CFS'.

All it takes to avoid misinterpretation of the author's findings is one line in the conclusion, i.e. "obesity is unlikely to contribute to the development of ME/CFS pathology", or something like that. But no effort is made to clarify this. What is left unstated is sometimes more revealing than what is said. I hope that's not the case here.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
Another stunning piece of from Crawley. Kids who are ill and unable to do much sometimes put on weight.

The factors behind obesity are complex, so it is never a good idea to try to reduce it to a simple so-called "common sense" etiology like "kids who are ill and unable to do much sometimes put on weight".



Well, d'oh! By stopping here, and not devoting any ink as to why activity levels might be reduced, the paper cleverly skirts around the wider medical context.

An the idea that lack of exercise might cause obesity makes little sense, because the amount of kilocalories burnt through exercise is minimal. The average human consumes around 2,000 kilocalories per day in food and drink.

If you were to go for a jog for 15 minutes every day, the amount of kilocalories that would burn is only 200. So that is going to make little difference to your net total kilocalorie intake. By comparison, the amount of kilocalories in a jam donut is 250. Thus food intake is far, far more influential than exercise on your net kilocalories.

But in any case, food intake is only part of the equation that leads to obesity.



The article seems explicitly set up to not raise reader awareness of a broader ME picture, thus luring them into connecting the two dots - obesity and ME/CFS - that it does provide.

You are confusing advocacy and media articles raising of public awareness with the publication of scientific study. It is not really purpose of a study to raise the reader's awareness of the broader ME picture.

Take Dr Chia's seminal study finding enteroviruses in the stomach tissues of 82% of ME/CFS patients. Where in that paper does Dr Chia raise the reader's awareness of the broader ME picture?



Given the complex physiopathology of ME/CFS, one can cherry-pick to cross-correlate two phenomena.

There are many diseases that are statistically more prevalent in ME/CFS patients, including the following: irritable bowel syndrome, interstitial cystitis and overactive bladder (irritable bladder), chronic pelvic pain syndrome, endometriosis, Raynaud’s disease, atopy (predisposition to allergies), multiple chemical sensitivity, temporomandibular joint disorder, myofascial pain syndrome, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression, generalized anxiety disorder, eating disorders, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, prolapsed mitral valve, Sjögren's syndrome (sicca syndrome), postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), and neurally mediated hypotension.

The above statistical comorbidities were found be studies like Esther Crawley's. Are you saying that all these studies just cherry-picked data in order to make it look like there was a statistical association?



That doesn't however mean any causation exists. And even if there is causation, statistics leaves its direction unspecified.

Every scientist knows that correlation does not necessarily imply causation, so you not saying anything new here. And of course, we know that you cannot deduce from the statistics of association whether there is causality, let alone the direction of causality.

But this problem also applies to viral ME/CFS studies or metabolic studies: when an association is found between a viral infection and ME/CFS, such as the association between enterovirus and ME/CFS, this does not prove that the virus causes ME/CFS. Likewise, an association found between metabolic abnormalities and ME/CFS does not prove those metabolic abnormalities cause ME/CFS, nor vice versa.

So the points of criticism you make apply just as much to the viral ME/CFS studies.



I've had another look at this paper, and what upsets me is its subtle strategic ambiguity; possible agenda-science at its most insidious masquerading as an honest exploratory research article.

That's just far too much conspiracy theory and paranoia for me.

The Canadian consensus criteria, under the neuroendocrine manifestations section, says that ME/CFS may involve a "marked weight change," meaning either weight gain or weight loss. Does that mean the CCC are also in on this "possible agenda-science at its most insidious".



Ironically, I was 15 stone pre-illness, but am now a trim 10 1/2 after 18 years of illness, largely because weight drops off me whenever things get bad. Where's my study Esther?

If you read the first paragraph of Esther's paper, you will find your answer:
Little research has been conducted investigating the relationship between chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) and obesity, especially in adolescents. The few cross-sectional studies which have been conducted have provided conflicting findings,1–4 while a large longitudinal study found no association between obesity at 10 years and self-reported CFS diagnosis by the age of 30 years.5

So different studies have shown different results. And as I mentioned, the CCC says ME/CFS may involve marked weight loss or marked weight gain.

It is possible that the particular virus which triggered the ME/CFS may be one factor that determines whether there is weight loss, weight gain, or neither.

But an individual's own metabolism and endocrinological state likely also play a role. I said earlier that as my ME/CFS-triggering virus spread to 30+ people, some of them, like me, developed central obesity (weight gain on the abdomen). But others with the same virus remained lean.
 
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Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Lack of activity has nothing to do with obesity in ME/CFS or any other disease. Pushing children into doing GET, which is what Crawley does for a living, is not going to help them lose weight. Exercise does not lead to weight loss contrary to popular belief. Even studies where they made fat people train for a marathon show no weight loss, marginal weight loss of a few lbs or even slight weight gain in individual participants.

Body weight is under homeostatic regulation by many hormones especially leptin which signal to the hypothalamus. If your metabolism is comprehensively busted, as it is in ME/CFS, you can get obese, or alternatively, keep wasting away into oblivion and it has nothing to do with your behaviour.

My own weight trajectory has been all over the place with this illness. When I became mostly housebound several years ago I first maintained my weight for a while. Then I started gaining weight rapidly and put on 40 lbs or more. Then I suddenly stopped being able to eat almost completely and lost almost 70 lbs. My activity levels did not change during that time, I simply went from being in bed almost all the time to sitting in a chair almost all the time.
 
Messages
10
I agree, lack of activity does not cause obesity.

It would be far more interesting to see a study done on gut bacteria in patients/adolescents with CFS/ME. As there have been studies linking low bacterial richness in the gut to obesity and metabolic syndrome.

A currently unknown gut bacteria could be the answer to the entire ME/CFS mystery;)
 

J.G

Senior Member
Messages
162
It is not really purpose of a study to raise the reader's awareness of the broader ME picture.
I would dispute that even from an academic perspective. If I were a budding scientist of ME/CFS, I would appreciate learning how a postulated relationship might tie in with the established and/or hypothesised body of knowledge on a particular illness. A few lines in an introduction and discussion section could suffice to sketch context and outline possible connections.

You are confusing advocacy and media articles raising of public awareness with the publication of scientific study.
Scientific studies are consumed by a wide range of people, including the media, who shape narratives. Narratives in turn influence where research funds are allocated. There is no iron curtain separating science from society. Of course, scientists have no obligation to make their studies accessible - they are to advance science, not create good reads. But that doesn't mean collective or partisan interests can't seep into their work. If they do, publications are an expert vehicle for disseminating the desired perspectives to society. It's a two-way street.

There are many diseases that are statistically more prevalent in ME/CFS patients, including the following: irritable bowel syndrome, interstitial cystitis and overactive bladder (irritable bladder), chronic pelvic pain syndrome, endometriosis, Raynaud’s disease, atopy (predisposition to allergies), multiple chemical sensitivity, temporomandibular joint disorder, myofascial pain syndrome, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression, generalized anxiety disorder, eating disorders, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, prolapsed mitral valve, Sjögren's syndrome (sicca syndrome), postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), and neurally mediated hypotension.

The above statistical comorbidities were found be studies like Esther Crawley's. Are you saying that all these studies just cherry-picked data in order to make it look like there was a statistical association?
Of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the multifactoral pathology of ME makes it possible to cherry-pick, not that every scientist always cherry-picks.

But this problem also applies to viral ME/CFS studies or metabolic studies: when an association is found between a viral infection and ME/CFS, such as the association between enterovirus and ME/CFS, this does not prove that the virus causes ME/CFS. Likewise, an association found between metabolic abnormalities and ME/CFS does not prove those metabolic abnormalities cause ME/CFS, nor vice versa.

So the points of criticism you make apply just as much to the viral ME/CFS studies.
It does indeed. Which is why it important that we choose our research targets wisely, and spend research funding constructively.

The Canadian consensus criteria, under the neuroendocrine manifestations section, says that ME/CFS may involve a "marked weight change," meaning either weight gain or weight loss. Does that mean the CCC are also in on this "possible agenda-science at its most insidious".
Why would that be the case? I'm saying I find this a very convenient paper at an inconvenient time, couching a generic conclusion in language that can be easily misinterpreted.

It is possible that the particular virus which triggered the ME/CFS may be one factor that determines whether there is weight loss, weight gain, or neither.

But an individual's own metabolism and endocrinological state likely also play a role. I said earlier that as my ME/CFS-triggering virus spread to 30+ people, some of them, like me, developed central obesity (weight gain on the abdomen). But others with the same virus remained lean.
That is interesting information. I wonder if gut microbiome changes played a role. Would have been nice to know if the authors consider that a possibility. If only they'd touched upon it in the paper. :)
 
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J.G

Senior Member
Messages
162
Always hate this

"Further longitudinal research is required in order to identify..."

Haha, well. More research is always required. I'm told there was a period in the 1980s when every second (humanities) research article ended on that sentence. Maybe it's coming back in vogue. ;)
 
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taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
An the idea that lack of exercise might cause obesity makes little sense, because the amount of kilocalories burnt through exercise is minimal. The average human consumes around 2,000 kilocalories per day in food and drink.

If you were to go for a jog for 15 minutes every day, the amount of kilocalories that would burn is only 200. So that is going to make little difference to your net total kilocalorie intake. By comparison, the amount of kilocalories in a jam donut is 250. Thus food intake is far, far more influential than exercise on your net kilocalories.

When it is said that exercise helps prevent obesity it thou isnt just about the calories being burned by exercise, a big part or this is also about the calories not being put then into the body in the first place (as we all know, once there it is hard to burn off calories but exercise for many helps people to eat a better diet).

eg When say a child is outside with friends throwing a basket ball into a hoop or out with friends bike riding, in the skate park with friends or whatever. This exercising is taking time away from possibly more fattening activities eg compare a couple of hours sitting in front of a TV while eatting popcorn or high fattening snack food with 2 hours in the skate park (how many of us eat chocolate in front of the tv). Its not just about calories burnt.

I have an obese nephew who's only about 11 years old, he doesnt do any exercise or go out with friends to do stuff and so is home constantly fridge raiding (his dr is already worried that he's going to get diabetes type 2).