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Crashing caused by diet change

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by wabi-sabi, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. wabi-sabi

    wabi-sabi

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    So I tried the low carb thing again and it really, really didn't make things better. I did it for three days, and day 4 (today) I ended up crying into my keyboard at work and having to go home. I was so ashamed about crying in public, but I felt so bad I couldn't help myself. I was so weak and dizzy. I've spent all day on the couch re-carbing myself and I am gradually coming back to life. Yet, I don't feel like my blood sugar is low. I just feel like my body has no fuel and I'm crashing.

    Does anyone else have this experience? I lose weight that I don't need to lose quick quickly when I cut down on carbs and it seems to make me sicker. But I keep reading how everyone else (it seems like) is helped by a keto sort of diet. I'm not even trying for keto- just eating less bread and more meat and veggies. What helps in terms of diet when you can't do low carb?
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.
  2. place

    place Be Strong!

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    I can’t speak for keto people but I do well with low carbs for two days than crash. What other diet changes have worked or not worked ? Maybe food allergies?
     
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  3. Mary

    Mary Moderator

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    What are you trying to accomplish by going low carb? What symptoms are you trying to deal with?
     
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  4. wabi-sabi

    wabi-sabi

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    Mostly my diet fluctuates with my energy levels. I love to cook and make mostly veggie based things when I can cook. Small amounts of meat and plenty of whole wheat toast works well. When I can't cook, it's lots of bread, cheese, and nut butter. Eating those things doesn't make me sicker, but don't seem to have enough nutrition to make me better. I just rest enough until I can cook again. The thing I really can't tolerate anymore is coffee.

    I guess the issue is that I read so much online about autoimmune diets and keto, and no dairy and no bread. I keep trying it and it never helps. SLow learner, I guess. :)
     
    Wolfcub likes this.
  5. wabi-sabi

    wabi-sabi

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    Mainly the cognitive problems. I just get too swayed by online testimonials for my own good. And I have a friend with diabetes who is doing better with low carb. Of course I don't have diabetes... But Dr Myhill's website says CFS people are prone to metabolic syndrome (precurser to diabetes) so I am trying to forestall that.
     
    Mary likes this.
  6. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    Just my personal experience. I do better with high carb (healthy ones) and lower fat. Whenever I eat too much fat, I get more sluggish.
     
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  7. Seven (formerly lnester7)

    Seven (formerly lnester7) Seven

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    I had come to the conclusion that my body cannot run on sugar so ketosis it is.
    When I did the low carb what I did wrong was lack of oils! If you do too much protein you end up in sugar again. So the trick is constant energy oil. I do MCT it bypasses the conversion and gives you instant energy ( use fat bombs too).
    I am on the conversion restarting Leto today and the first days are hard while the body switches, so read about ways to make a faster transition and things that bypass conversion for energy!
     
    Mary likes this.
  8. Mary

    Mary Moderator

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    Years ago I read a lot about how well people were doing on a certain fast that used lemon juice, maple syrup and cayenne I believe, maybe a few other things, but it was a big thing. I was still working then and a women I worked with swore by it. She did it for 10 -14 days and felt great. By the 3rd day I got very sick and had to stop. I apparently had trouble with toxins even pre-CFS. What I'm trying to say is don't go by online testimonials. Our bodies (people with ME/CFS) do not work the same as other people, and you'll have to find what works best for you. If something makes you feel bad, in general you should stop. I think there are exceptions - certain detox protocols, where a person knows what they are doing and so on. Or herx reactions - but again, the person needs to know what they are doing.

    I agree people with ME/CFS may be prone to metabolic syndrome. My diet is very good, way better than my formerly vegetarian sister who ate a lot of sugar, but her blood sugar was always in the middle of the normal range and mine was near the top - unfair! :aghhh: So I watch everything I eat very carefully. Actually I am going to be giving the keto diet a try, but will have to see if I tolerate it or not. I hope I do.

    Anyways, you might do a search on the board for what has helped others with cognitive problems. I think B12 has helped many people with this. You could also do a post asking for suggestions.

    Here's a tip by the way: when you're replying to someone, it's a good idea to either tag them by putting the "@" sign in front of their user name like this: @wabi-sabi or this @Mary, and that way they'll get an alert that you have responded. Or if you hit the reply button at the bottom of their post, they'll get a notification that you have replied to them.

    When replying to a lengthy post, it's best to just highlight the pertinent portion you're replying to, and then a reply button will pop up and that portion of the post will be copied to the reply window. This will help keep the board uncluttered and easier to manage. :nerd:
     
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  9. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I noticed that for me, lower carbs increase cortisol. If your pancreas can't produce enough glucagon, then the cortisol goes higher, and lowers t4 to t3 conversion and more importantly triggers post prandial hypoglycemia. Blood sugar fluctuations are what cause the "adrenal fatigue" phenomena with high cortisol.
     
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  10. percyval577

    percyval577 Senior Member

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    I have ever eaten high fat.
    But now I have read that sugar and fat will downregulate AChE, therefore upregulate ACh.
    Since one year I think that high ACh is a problem.
    So I stopped eating almost any sugar and eat fat only one time a day - and it works.

    And it´s a long term change, so there is the chance to get progredient better (and it seems to work, a bit chaoticly though).

    ACh will be high if nitric oxide is high. In the spinal cord it has been shown that ACh will induce nitric oxide.
    So, maybe there is in the brain a positive feedback loop! If this could become smaller, it would be fantastic.

    I know a second influence on nitric oxide, which is manganese, elevating gene expression of iNOS.
    So I avoid since long high manganese food with a slow diminishing of pain and immediate improvement of sleep.


    I like to hope that this is the solution. Both entities (if high) can be understood as a state of "serving wound healing",
    and possible downstream events (of different sort) might be influenced with time, hopefully.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
  11. mattie

    mattie Senior Member

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    Low carbs means High Fat and / or High protein.
    Both are very very unhealthy.
    Bulk of calories has to come from complex carbohydrates. The only clean fuel there is.
    No you don't need loads of protein and you definitely don't want to wreck your system with long term high fat intake.

    Want to learn more about this: watch Dr. Mc. Dougall or Dr. Klaper on youtube.

    Wan't to support your body? Eat a low fat plant based diet.

    It helped me maintain a perfectly healthy weight while being absurdly inactive for almost 3 years now.

    No, plant based diet does not cure all diseases, certainly not a complex one like ME.
    But it will keep you as healthy as possible while we wait for the science to come through with the answers we all so desperately need.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
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  12. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    My son needs meat to feel well and carbs to have energy. The old-fashioned meat-and-three-veg diet that we all grew up on suits him very, very well.
     
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  13. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    I do not have this particular experience, but I have experienced that even minor changes in diet can crash me totally. For instance, if I add garlic to a meal, even rather low amounts, I get headache, palpitations and a general worsening of symptoms. Same when I eat high-fiber foods (low carb seems to be helpful, maybe because it has less fiber).

    So if someone here is reporting that even minor diet changes can have a huge effect, I am believing them totally.

    But I would caution against ascribing it to the "low carb" immediately. It took me very long to find out what the foods are that cause me getting worse. For instance, for a good while I thought it is potassium, but I am now convinced it is fiber and potassium just happens to be high in most high-fiber foods and I was on the wrong track at first. Same with milk. I thought I am lactose intolerant, but then tested negative and found out it is the calcium (problem is the same with supplements).

    So the problem might well be the veggies added instead of the bread than the carbs lost. Maybe if those veggies were replaced by something else that is also low-carb, it wouldn't be a problem.

    That's my experience: It was very hard to figure out what exactly is causing the problems (I still don't think I know exactly, although I think I have a good idea now).
     
    percyval577 likes this.
  14. wabi-sabi

    wabi-sabi

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    This is so interesting to me. Mostly it reinforces what a frustrating and illogical illness this is. How did you figure out your triggers are exactly?

    When I'm in a flare up, bread, butter and cheese are most of what I can tolerate. Sometimes I even crave butter and it it straight! Stuff with fiber, like veggies, gives me tummy trouble. But when I'm not having a flare, my body seems to really want to catch up on the veggie intake. It's just that right now I am not so good at pacing, so keep flaring up for non-diet reasons, then try to fix that with the diet changes, and accidentally make myself worse.
     
  15. wabi-sabi

    wabi-sabi

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    I suspect the cortisol may be my problem. The sugar crash and spike thing happens quickly- fluctuations in energy over a matter of hours. Eat bag of chocolate chips, get really high, and three hours later- just awful.

    But what I feel on the low carb diet is a slow drain over a couple days. That's what allows me to fool myself that I'm OK until I crash too hard to ignore.
     
  16. S-VV

    S-VV Senior Member

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    Any drastic diet change powerfully modulates the microbiome, for better or worse. If you have IBS-like symptoms maybe you could look into that. ( https://cfsremission.com)

    A low carb diet means less food for your gut bacteria, and if you have a disfunctional microbiome, it could provide temporary relief.

    Also, in my experience, low carb diets are catastrophic. Cortisol goes up and while the body can sustain this state I feel better. But eventually the body burns through all the "stress reserves" and crashes.

    The diet that works for me after years of searching is inspired by Ray Peat: high sugar, some starch, some sat fat, avoid pufa at all costs. Counterintuitive, but it upregulates the metabolism. I've actually lost weight eating sugar at libitum. ( https://raypeatforum.com/)
     
  17. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    It's especially frustrating because everyone who reports getting worse from foods seems to have different foods they can't tolerate. I haven't seen any pattern at all so far.

    I suspected that foods make me sick quite early, years ago when I was still able to work and still could do sports etc. But then I checked possibly food allergies and intolerance (gluten, fructose, lactose etc.) and all came back negative, so I might be on the wrong track.

    The first food I could prove this problem exists (prove by my personal standards) was garlic. I tried several times over many weeks and each time I had exactly the same negative reaction. So that was proof for me that foods are doing something.

    Next, I found I was getting worse with calcium. I added it in high doses as a supplement 3 times and got worse each time, so I knew this must be a factor as well.

    Then I found out that I am getting worse from healthy foods (which is paradoxical, but it's the way it is). I thought that perhaps the potassium is to blame because it is doing something similar as the calcium. But then I realized I am getting worse from psyllium as well, which is very high in fiber, but you take it in low amounts that only have low potassium. So that's why I now concluded that potassium isn't the issue and it's actually fiber. I reduced my fiber massively and doing a bit better since.

    The bad thing about this is that this creates a rather unbalanced and unhealthy diet, but I think I have no other chance because I am getting so much worse from healthy foods.

    But I am not alone with this:

    https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/healthy-food-makes-me-worse.56387/

    It's also fascinating what Jordan Peterson says about how diet totally changes his disease (probably autoimmune):



    I am convinced that diet has a HUGE impact on CFS in many patients, but most doctors dismiss it. I can't blame them. If someone had told me 10 years ago they are getting worse from eating stuff like garlic and fiberous foods, I wouldn't have believed it either.
     
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  18. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    It's almost like doing an elimination diet, when you cut everything out but meat.

    If things like fiber and immune regulating foods are causing issues, it makes me think SIBO or gut issues. Fiber possibly causing growth of bad strains.
     
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  19. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I can't tolerate more veges (esp onion, broccoli, caluliflower etc) and most fruit in my diet so increasing these would make me worse. It's a mixture of my stomach not tolerating them plus the "no fuel" reaction you describe.

    If you are increasing veges and you cannot tolerate them this could be the key maybe?
     
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  20. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    In my own case, I was thinking about gut bacteria who are producing butyrate from fiber. Butyrate is known to reactivate herpes viruses.
     

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