Chronic fatigue and masculinity

[sb4]

basically, everything you think a man (but not a woman) should be, that's probably toxic masculinity.

Got to say I disagree with this. Yes aspects of both masculinity and femininity can be toxic but also aspects can be very good/beneficial.

I think most men striving to be a provider, capable of protecting others, being physically strong, and confident, etc is a very good thing to aim for. Just like most women striving to be socially adept, emotionally intune, caring, looking good, etc is also a very good thing to aim for.

It would be good to get rid of gender roles that don't serve us anymore but I think there is a loud movement to get rid of genders almost completely which I think is a very bad idea.

At the end of the day, CFS effects masculinity (and femininty) negatively and it's something we just have to find a way to deal with until we get better.

 

[PracticingAcceptance]

@sb4 I'm definitely open to being challenged on what men 'should' be that is good.

However, your argument that those qualities that you think of as masculine and feminine are respectively good to aim for is what's keeping these men unhappy. If you cannot be physically strong because you have a serious illness, putting pressure on yourself to be strong because otherwise you perceive you are not a 'real man' is going to make you feel horrible about yourself. Feeling horrible about yourself does not help anything - it won't help stress levels that can make the illness worse, it won't help your mental health, it won't help your relationships.

What can help is realising that what counts as a 'real man' is something invented. And you as an individual, on your own path of self growth, can decide whether it's helpful to you or not. If it's not helpful, you can find your own way of thinking about manliness that serves you better - that doesn't make you feel inadequate.

Just because you don't agree with the whole movement around gender right now, it doesn't mean you won't find something useful in it for your own journey. Wishing you happiness and health.

 

[sb4]

However, your argument that those qualities that you think of as masculine and feminine are respectively good to aim for is what's keeping these men unhappy.

It can make you unhappy in this area but it doesn't mean overall I cannot be happy. Most men want to be masculin (and evolutionairly speaking there is very good reason for this),
. . . most people want to be healthy. I am sad that my masculinity has took a big hit, I am sad that I'm not healthy, however overall I am not that sad. I am working hard to try to heal myself and trying to be as productive as possible in this time. I hope that by educating myself on health, I can not only get better but help people in the mean time and go on to be a productive member of society later in life. It's a shitty hand we've been dealt but I am trying to play it the best I can. This makes me overall not too sad despite lack of masculine characteristics.

What can help is realising that what counts as a 'real man' is something invented.

I agree it is invented, but it was invented mostly for good reason. Evolutionarily speaking it was good for men to be confident/competitive/agressive/strong/etc. Some of that stuff is now outdated but I think most isn't.

With CFS, you take a hit to your masculinity which makes you more unatractive to the vast majority of women out there who are looking for someone confident, who can provide, and strong. So you have to recalibrate your expectations. Women with CFS will experience different problems (infertility, looks, etc) but being physically weak, financially dependent, and not confident isn't as big a problem for women in the dating world, and in general, as men. This is the reality of the situation.

I'm not saying women don't have it as bad as men at all. I'm saying that CFS does effect masculinity but that's not the be all and end all. You can still be useful to society. Even if you can't, (too severe) then you can atleast take comfort in knowing it isn't your fault, and try to do what little you can to help yourself.

Wishing you happiness and health.

Thank you, I wish the same for you.

 

[PracticingAcceptance]

I have so many problems with what you've said @sb4 but I'm afraid I don't have the energy to debate with you.

 

[juntjoo]

It is true that just by the fact it is mostly a female problem it's worse for a man. How does one explain that to other men? Heck, we can all redefine our beliefs to be in bliss, however realistically possible that is, but as sb4 said, reality is we live within society and it has certain expectations. A few men who lack certain qualities the majority of the species expects them to have aren't going to lessen the weight of this pressure no matter how successful they are are convincing themselves it doesn't exist. And I agree with the emphasis on gender roles in general. I've no issue with those that live 'alternative' lives/roles, especially with how the human species is becoming a planetary plague anything between gays and neutrals is good for the planet, but for the survival of the species a good strong gender balance is healthy no? Hence I wish I could contribute better lol. All this gender stuff aside, actually I might give my genitals for the strength and health of a super hero and just live solo and fight crime to get my fulfillment of purpose

 

[PracticingAcceptance]

 

[pamojja]

Funny video. The only extent I'm interested in stereotypes, socialized roles and identities, is how to break free of any of them.

I strongly believe we are all more than that. However, not knowing our true nature we prefer to be at least someone, have at least something, than what appears as nothing. And there it goes: identification and need.. along with insecurity, fears, envy, anger..

 

[juntjoo]

Have any of you 'men' considered steroids? Not for getting 'ripped' but just to feel better.. I'm about to Google it. I'd imagine you'd take a small amount compared to what's normally used. I myself am looking for a cure but at the same time I'm desparate and am willing to welcome a crutch of some sort to give me a little help to get on the right track. Somehow homemade steroids ended up in my youtube feed so it got me thinking

 

[EtherSpin]

this thread is really a good space for guys to discuss how the illness affects them, gender discussion as a broader topic has its place of course but you won't see many threads like this and when there are other topics about women and the unique forms of discrimination they attract with this illness ( due to gender norms) the discussion will be one of sympathy generally. it wouldn't be great for a man to jump in those discussions and tell the women in there that the way they present and the way they process illness is because of their fatal connection to femininity and regardless of the merits of the arguments for what Toxic Masculinity is, we wouldn't label it toxic femininity cause that would be seen as perjorative in what is essentially a gender specific support thread for guys to relate to guys without being instructed how to be guys.

I hope this is construed as well mannered and respectful because thats the way i intend it, CFS is a creeper of an illness and its important that we do find what little bits of support we can from people who understand this illness and sometimes thats just in the form of sharing and for people half of whom might be house or bedbound its too much right now to deconstruct all our motivations and archetypes, we just need a bit of comraderie from people who share something in common with us.

I'm a big fan of calling something what it is and leaving our gender labels , e.g. Toxic Gender stereotypes rather than Toxic masculinity which implies something uniquely nefarious about men (even when it hurts men themselves) and just using the work "patronisation" when people are condescending rather than the idea that just men are condescending via the relatively new "Man-splaining"

I am not a traditional guy and have never liked the idea, very much one to reject expectation and ensure I don't demand it of friends but I want this thread to be somewhere CFS guys can express themselves unhampered by reminders that besides being broken and ill we might have had a broken mindset to begin with, lets just relate and support ?

we will manage to help each other as guys to shake off needless insecurities in here by comparing our situations and strategies I am sure

 

[Dave232]

Its tough. For the fact your even less likely to be believed as minority in a minority.. ..But, other than that the sharing of support and information feels pretty universal to me. Thats the important part for me. Cool question.

 

[Desertstorm]

Have you guys heard of 'toxic masculinity'?

I'm not sure if this article will hit home with you: https://www.indy100.com/article/toxic-masculinity-viral-tweets-male-mental-health-8515101 (it's lots of tweets so it's easier reading than a proper article)

Toxic masculinity, as I understand it, is what we as a society think a man SHOULD be, regardless of what he actually is. Men are expected to not feel pain, to be angry rather than upset if something goes wrong, to always be assertive or even aggressive (but never passive), to be strong physically and mentally, to not need to talk about emotions, to make the first move when it comes to dating, to be a provider and defender of the family, to have good sperm and always want to have sex, etc... basically, everything you think a man (but not a woman) should be, that's probably toxic masculinity. They are unfair standards to hold yourselves to.

The truth is, everyone is different. And it is possible for men to feel pain, and it's utterly ridiculous that you've been raised to feel shame about expressing difficult emotions. This may be why men are more likely to kill themselves than women are - because men are much less likely to talk out their emotions.

You might be typically 'masculine' in some ways, and not in others. And that's ok. You are just as valuable as a human being as you would otherwise be.

If you google it, you might find stuff about the patriarchy and rape culture, and that's worth a read if you care about women. Otherwise, the concept of toxic masculinity is really worth looking into in regards to self esteem.

Oh my...

Firstly the term "toxic" is pejorative to the extreme. Masculinity is part of the human makeup for a reason. It is to assist the species in producing healthy robust offspring. I say this as a \male ME/CFS sufferer. Males do want to feel and be seen as masculine, that was part of the point of the thread after all. It is not a choice, it is part of who we are. The same reason women want to look good and love being told they are attractive. Patriarchy? Rape culture? (Rape and any other crime is not cultural it is a choice. To claim it is 'cultural' is to simply excuse the perp or paint a group with a broad brush. ) Sorry but this nonsense of denying that humans are part of the natural order does nobody any favors. If one understands how nature works, be it a wolf pack, grouse or hedgehogs there are fights over territory, males fighting or at least strutting over females (while they look on judging who to mate with) and the same things happen in human society. It is rather arrogant of us humans to pretend we have evolved our way out of nature is it not? Women ARE attracted to strong successful men. That is simply a fact of life and always will be. That is not to say that we should not work toward a lawful civil society given that is what advances our species now versus say in Viking times.

The WORST thing a person can do is deny who they are and why they are. To do otherwise is to be King Canute trying to stop the tides. It only leads to sorrow. Have we not learned anything from the acceptance of homosexuality, equality of the sexes or the insanity of racism? It is not about being seen as a victim, but rather being seen and seeing ourselves for for what we really are. Social equality at the personal level is not about all being or thinking the same, it is about what we are at that personal level.

As for the real question posed by this thread, yes males and females are different. In a group setting discussing certain issues between sexes does not work. A prime example I have is group therapy for PTSD. One such group had five male combat vets and two females who had been sexually assaulted in the military (one by a man and one by several women). By then next week the two women had quit the group, and I don't blame them for obvious reasons.

Being a male with ME/CFS who can't do a fraction of what I could just five years ago...well that is my harsh reality. No different than contracting cancer or MS. Shit happens. I am 60 years of age now, I am married have kids, did a lot of "manly" things like make it into the SFs, go to war, play football, pick up "gals" (before being married!) provide for my family and all that good stuff. My heart goes out to anyone who gets this shit at a young age, before being able to experience life as it should be. That all said, the best and only way to get through this is through acceptance of one's reality. Nobody should set their idea of self worth by how attractive they are with the opposite sex, but then nobody should give up on that either. Life has a way of rewarding the bold, no matter what their circumstances in life. What it takes is drive and going beyond your imposed limits.

 

[Wolfcub]

I don't know if anyone knows the life story of the composer, Chopin...
But he had TB and may have had something at least similar to CFS if not that specific thing.

And what he brought to the world!

As a man, and as a Soul.

And he had style.....and charisma, and passion and George Sand (female by the way and his lover) found him irresistible!

 

[juntjoo]

Oh my...

Firstly the term "toxic" is pejorative to the extreme. Masculinity is part of the human makeup for a reason. It is to assist the species in producing healthy robust offspring. I say this as a \male ME/CFS sufferer. Males do want to feel and be seen as masculine, that was part of the point of the thread after all. It is not a choice, it is part of who we are. The same reason women want to look good and love being told they are attractive. Patriarchy? Rape culture? (Rape and any other crime is not cultural it is a choice. To claim it is 'cultural' is to simply excuse the perp or paint a group with a broad brush. ) Sorry but this nonsense of denying that humans are part of the natural order does nobody any favors. If one understands how nature works, be it a wolf pack, grouse or hedgehogs there are fights over territory, males fighting or at least strutting over females (while they look on judging who to mate with) and the same things happen in human society. It is rather arrogant of us humans to pretend we have evolved our way out of nature is it not? Women ARE attracted to strong successful men. That is simply a fact of life and always will be. That is not to say that we should not work toward a lawful civil society given that is what advances our species now versus say in Viking times.

The WORST thing a person can do is deny who they are and why they are. To do otherwise is to be King Canute trying to stop the tides. It only leads to sorrow. Have we not learned anything from the acceptance of homosexuality, equality of the sexes or the insanity of racism? It is not about being seen as a victim, but rather being seen and seeing ourselves for for what we really are. Social equality at the personal level is not about all being or thinking the same, it is about what we are at that personal level.

As for the real question posed by this thread, yes males and females are different. In a group setting discussing certain issues between sexes does not work. A prime example I have is group therapy for PTSD. One such group had five male combat vets and two females who had been sexually assaulted in the military (one by a man and one by several women). By then next week the two women had quit the group, and I don't blame them for obvious reasons.

Being a male with ME/CFS who can't do a fraction of what I could just five years ago...well that is my harsh reality. No different than contracting cancer or MS. Shit happens. I am 60 years of age now, I am married have kids, did a lot of "manly" things like make it into the SFs, go to war, play football, pick up "gals" (before being married!) provide for my family and all that good stuff. My heart goes out to anyone who gets this shit at a young age, before being able to experience life as it should be. That all said, the best and only way to get through this is through acceptance of one's reality. Nobody should set their idea of self worth by how attractive they are with the opposite sex, but then nobody should give up on that either. Life has a way of rewarding the bold, no matter what their circumstances in life. What it takes is drive and going beyond your imposed limits.

Hear hear! (grunts a fellow disabled male animal)

 

[outdamnspot]

I do have one question for other men. I've been unable to masturbate for the past 5 months because it will induce a severe crash (prior to that, I may have once a week or so). However, I may sometimes still look at pornography, purely out of boredom, and the arousal can lead to 'pre-cum' (though I never go so far as to orgasm). Does anyone know if pre-cum has any similar physiological effects to an orgasm in terms of taxing the body? I know an orgasm can trigger hormonal/physiological changes, but would that be different? I guess it's difficult being a guy and bedridden and online all day, so just wondering how much I actually have to restrict.

 

[sb4]

@outdamnspot I too have noticed I feel worse when I ejaculate frequently. I think it may be something to do with less sensitive androgen receptors post ejaculation, or spermatogenesis taxing the system in someway (need extra glutathione/vitamins/minerals?).

I don't think precum significantly effects either of those things. For me I occasionally masturbate but no ejaculation. This seems to work out better.

 

[juntjoo]

I do have one question for other men. I've been unable to masturbate for the past 5 months because it will induce a severe crash (prior to that, I may have once a week or so). However, I may sometimes still look at pornography, purely out of boredom, and the arousal can lead to 'pre-cum' (though I never go so far as to orgasm). Does anyone know if pre-cum has any similar physiological effects to an orgasm in terms of taxing the body? I know an orgasm can trigger hormonal/physiological changes, but would that be different? I guess it's difficult being a guy and bedridden and online all day, so just wondering how much I actually have to restrict.

Wow man, I can't even relate. I'm very sorry about your issue there. I shouldn't say that tho. We all suffer in different ways. If anything, maturation gives me temporary relief, as it should when that function is working properly. BY MYSELF that function works. If I was mentally prepared to actively get myself a mate then I'd have new sexual problems as the last time I was with a woman almost a decade ago was on viagra as I wouldn't be able to function beyond.. IDK, but if if I were a competitor in a race to ejaculate I'd be a champ, if I had privacy lol, and a partner I was comfortable with lol.

Also, maturation for me these days is just a other unnecessary thing I'm trying to cut down on. Maybe you don't really need to do it and it just serves to remind you of your illness? I'm sure your heard of "no FAP". Can't say my week records have given me new bouts of improvements in sexual or other energy, but I don't feel I'm missing anything except romance, but that's whole other story. And it's not like you can really quit anyway, the idea is just let your body take care of your needs via "nocturnal emissions". I think that would take like a month to induce that for me. Hasn't happened yet. I think my record is like 12 days. Anyway, hope you get the answers you need