May 12, 2017 Is International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day
International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day is May 12th, 2017. Jody Smith shares some information about upcoming events and ways you can be heard ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by pattismith, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,518
    Likes:
    2,297
    I didn't find anywhere this article from 2012 by Cort, so I post an extract :

    http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...nic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005

    begining of the article:

    Brain metabolic activity in CFS
    Three studies have examined metabolic functioning in the brain using proton magnetic spectroscopy (MRS) (Chaudhuri et. al. 2003, Tomoda et. al. 2000, Puri et. al. 2002). The levels of three metabolites (N-acetyl aspartate (NAA), choline, creatine) in the brain are examined using this technique.

    Puri’s study found that CFS patients (a) have significantly higher levels of choline in the occipital region of the brain than do controls and (b) exhibit an abnormal choline gradient between the motor and occipital cortex (Puri et. al. 2002).

    Chaudhuri’s study found increased choline levels in the basal ganglia (Chaudhuri et. al. 2003). A very small study (n=3) examining adolescents with CFS also found increased choline levels in the basal ganglia as well (Tomoda et. al. 2001).

    Three studies then, all of them small, but most with highly significant findings (p<.05, p<.001, p<.008) have found increased brain choline levels mostly in the basal ganglia. Normal NAA levels in two studies indicated neuronal mass was not disturbed.

    The basal ganglia
    The basal ganglia are large masses of gray matter at the base of the cerebral hemisphere; i.e. they are near the base of the skull where it meets the spinal column. They provide a nexus for interactions combining limbic/motor activities with volition; i.e. they play a key role in internal motivational states. One of the aspects they effect is perception of effort.

    The limbic system is a collective term that denotes an array of interconnected brain structures (hippocampus, amygdale, fornicate gyrus) at or near the edge (limbus) of the cerebral hemisphere that connect with the hypothalamus.

    By way of these connections, the limbic system exerts an important influence upon the endocrine and autonomic motor systems and appears to effect motivation and mood. Several endocrine and autonomic nervous system abnormalities have been identified in ME/CFS.

    Basal ganglia dysfunction often causes problems with something called ‘tasking’. Sequential task processing, for instance, an important process used in initiating and following through complex tasks, is often impaired in people with basal ganglia dysfunction.

    The ‘reward’ system which provides motivational impulses that in turn stimulate other parts of the brain is also often disrupted. These two abnormalities can increase the effort needed to carry out complex tasks, in particular.

    A disease called akinesia which is defined as “poverty and slowness in willful movements” can also occur because of basal ganglia disease. It is believed to result from the inability of the brain to respond to environmental cues such as sight, sound and touch.

    Choline
    Choline is found in three forms in humans; phosphatidycholine (lecithin), acetylcholine and cytidine diphosphocholine. Most of the choline in the body is found in specialized fat cells called phospholipids that are abundant in the membranes of cells. Choline in used in the synthesis of three components in cell membranes; phospholipids, phosphatidycholine (lecithin) and sphingomyelin.

    Causes of increased brain choline production
    Elevated brain choline levels are usually associated with increased cell production (malignant tumors) and/or increased cell membrane turnover due to inflammation or ischemia (low blood flows) (Chaudhuri et. al. 2003).
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    adambeyoncelowe, sb4, Violeta and 6 others like this.
  2. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,518
    Likes:
    2,297
    An atypical antipsychotic drug Clozapine has this anti inflammatory property:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278584617300258
     
    adambeyoncelowe and ErdemX like this.
  3. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes:
    4,994
    Pacific Northwest
    adambeyoncelowe, ErdemX, PatJ and 2 others like this.
  4. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    941
    South east England
    Well done @pattismith for finding that and posting it. Filled in a gap in my knowledge. Inflammation. Keeps coming up. For quite a while now I have been thinking that the much loved idea that depression and other symptoms that are (according to medical science and the pharma industry) caused by an imbalance in the levels of neurotransmitters is wrong. Heresy. But how about this: The distubance in neurotransmitter levels is caused by inflammation and it is the inflammation that is the real cause of the symptoms. Any ideas about this from members?
     
  5. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes:
    4,994
    Pacific Northwest
    Having too little or too much of a particular neurotransmitter can produce brain symtoms. I felt lethargic and couldn't move, and reported it to my doctor, who measured my dopamine level, found it to be low, as well as my tyrosine level which was practically zero. Taking 3-6g of tyrosine solved the problem!

    But there are many other things that can create brain symptoms, like infections, trauma, and other nutrient deficiencies, like lack of B12, zinc, lipids, and other amino acids.

    I'm not convinced inflammation leads to disturbed neurotransmitter levels. It may, but if inflammation is found, some detective work to find the cause is in order.

    I've been finding IVIG causes inflammation in my CNS and dexamethasone and boswellia seem to help. For other causes, other solution sets apply.
     
  6. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    941
    South east England
    Sure take the point about Tyrosine. What I mean is that it is the anti-inflammatory effect of those substances defined as neurotransmitters that helps. So when they drop-as in your case- the protective effect they have in preventing imflammation is lost. Yeah i am aware of the many other things that can cause brain symptoms. But the exact manner in which they cause symptoms is difficult-if not impossible- to determine.
     
    Sundancer and pattismith like this.
  7. Mary

    Mary Moderator

    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes:
    9,165
    Southern California
    @pattismith - FWIW, I started taking lecithin which is high in choline several years ago (but also several years post-onset of ME/CFS) for brain health - my short-term memory improved noticeably shortly after starting the choline - e.g., when going to the grocery store to get a couple of things without a list, I would remember items that previously I would easily forget. I recommended it to one of my sisters who also noticed a memory benefit. And, I'm not sure if this is related to the choline or not, but at one point I became able to do crosswords more easily - answers would come more easily and quickly to me.

    I don't know how this would relate to the above study in case people would think of avoiding choline - perhaps it's not we have too much choline but how it's distributed that is the problem?
     
    Violeta, Sundancer, Wayne and 2 others like this.
  8. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    941
    South east England
    Maybe the benefit you got comes from something other than the choline in the lecithin?
     
    pattismith likes this.
  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes:
    4,994
    Pacific Northwest
    Cell membranes need phospholipids, like phosphatidyl choline. Patients have had some success taking lecithin, phosphatidyl choline, and other phospholipids, as in the NT Factor product.

    Maes and Morris describe how mitochondrial membranes get damaged, and Nicolson has done a lot of work with lipid replenishment with Gulf War Illness, cancer-related fatigue, infections, and ME/CFS.

    I've found benefit from taking NT Factor, as well as reducing the sources and effects of oxidative and nitrosative stress.
     

    Attached Files:

    SherDa, Violeta, Sundancer and 2 others like this.
  10. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,518
    Likes:
    2,297
    Mary I felt concerned by this question when a PR member reported problems after taking choline. He raised this important issue and found this ancient article by Cort (thank you @joejack102 ).

    I am too much exhausted to explain the choline question in details in english, but andy and learner have perfectly understand how we can interpret the sources I quoted.

    More and more articles are pointing brain inflammation (and especially microglial activation) in diseases like depression or schizophrenia, like it has been pointed in ME as well!
    So I found that reading schizophrenia articles was very informative. In this particular pathology, an infectious origin is suspected as well...

    So to make it short, taking choline alone might not be good for us, but taking Lecithin is very good, because inflammation and cell death calls for more phospholipids' needs.
     
    Sundancer, andyguitar and Mary like this.
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes:
    4,994
    Pacific Northwest
    It also depends on how well your Kennedy pathway, Lands cycle, and PEMT pathways work, to make all the needed conversions.

    That's why taking a product with the already converted substances may be easier than waiting and hoping for the conversion from lecithin.
     
    Sundancer, andyguitar and Mary like this.
  12. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    941
    South east England
    Very interesting thread and hats off to @pattismith for starting it. I have also been looking at schizophrenia among many other 'Brain Problems'. Whilst looking at some recent research I came across information about a drug that had been developed but not brought to market. Many drugs suffer the same fate. Although they show promise the cost of the clinical trials needed to get them approved is not economic. What struck me about the particular drug was that it was designed to work on Histamine receptors. The idea that schizophrenia is caused by allergy is not new. I first came across that theory about 20 years ago. Cant remember the book it was in but fairly sure it was by a British immunologist. It's a shame that members tend to shy away from research that may hold the key to CFS just because the word 'Psychitric' is used. There is some research I turned up last year that shows in graphic detail how one particular drug in the class 'Serotonin Release Agent' causes serious,long lasting inflammation in the parts of the brain which seem to be malfunctioning in CFS/ME. There is a serious problem with posting about it. So if anyone wants to know about it PM me. But dont shoot me I'm only the messenger. It's going to come out anyway. Question is how to deal with it when it does.
     
    Sundancer and pattismith like this.
  13. Lipac

    Lipac Senior Member

    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    311
    michigan
    Because lack of brain acetylcholine is Associated with dementia , or just memory loss,, and I take two anticholinergics ( even daily allergy meds increase brain degeneration risk)...

    I've been taking either Citicholine, or alpha gpc for 9 months or so.

    I'm too tired to read this entire thread and can't find a research articles if this is a bad idea in CFS.

    Everything I've read about increasing acetyl choline, or taking regular choline to protect from fatty liver disease, in general is positive.

    Responses are welcome.
    Thank you.
     
    adambeyoncelowe and Sundancer like this.
  14. Lipac

    Lipac Senior Member

    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    311
    michigan
    This is how aricept works in dementia. Works for any short term memory loss that's not from obvious causes- pulling all nighter in college, alcohol abuse, etc.
     
  15. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,518
    Likes:
    2,297
    from what I understand elevated choline in the basal ganglia is caused by brain inflamation or ischemia, and has detrimental effect.

    For this reason, I think the best choline supplement is from lecithine form, because CFS patients are lacking phospholipids/phosphatidyl choline.

    I use Sunflower Lecithine (I tryed soya Lecithine first, but I took too much weight on it because oestrogenic effect, so i switched)...
     
    adambeyoncelowe, andyguitar and Lipac like this.
  16. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

    Messages:
    382
    Likes:
    258
    I have been trying to figure out a solution to this excess choline in brain for years. This is interconnected to a lot of problems i have. I can take some choline related supplements but i have to be careful so it doesn't build up. I do take polyenylphosphatydylcholine and siliphos on occasion to clean my liver. I wish there were an antidote to drain off this excessive choline build up in brain. Any antidote would have to be derived naturally and not a pharmaceutical which is almost always toxic to the body.
     
    Sundancer and ljimbo423 like this.
  17. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

    Messages:
    382
    Likes:
    258
    Just yesterday I took some collagen supplements and I had piercing migraine like symptom during sleep. I'm pretty sure that causes the build up of choline. This choline problem causes problems with any supplement that generates too much choline in the brain.

    i wish there were more research for a solution

    I do think that looking at it as a blood flow problem is not correct. If that were so, something like nattokinase / serapeptase would help with the problem but it doesn't so that is a dead end ... brain inflammation ... where do we go with that to get a solution

    i did write a long post about how i cleaned up my liver inflammation. it was simple and very fast cure.

    i wonder if the cholinerase would address it ...
    Acetylcholinesterase (generally referred to as cholinesterase): an enzyme that rapidly breaks down the neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, so that it does not over-stimulate post-synaptic nerves, muscles, and exocrine glands

    are there any natural cholinesterase

    googling for that always brings up inhibitors

     
    Sundancer likes this.
  18. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

    Messages:
    382
    Likes:
    258
    How to increase or decrease Acetylcholine
    https://mybiohack.com/blog/acetylcholine

    video said ...
    Ginseng enhances body utilization of choline ... maybe good thing
    racetams can use choline up faster in theory
    Forskolin increase cholinesterase so break down faster
     
    percyval577 and ljimbo423 like this.
  19. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

    Messages:
    505
    Likes:
    1,178
    Holland
    interesting thread, nothing to add in the choline department, but

    i would like to add that those imbalances often have to do with the receptor-cells being downregulated ( or upregulated).

    for instance people with ADHD have problems with the dopaminergic system, but it's not that dopamine-level is low, on the contrary, dopamine-levels are much higher then in controls. It's the receptorcells that are downregulated.

    and when one thingy becomes unbalanced, the rest follows in it wake.
     
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,674
    Likes:
    1,012
    What have you done to reduce the sources and effects of oxidative and nitrosative stress? TIA
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page