The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Caffeine

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by Beyond, Sep 22, 2015.

  1. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    I want to discuss caffeine with other people with wicked low cortisol and pity levels of the rest of steroids/sexual hormones AKA "Adrenal Fatigue".

    My 23andme text revealed an homozygous mutation in the most relevant caffeine-related gene. I am a really slow caffeine metabolizer. No surprise but good to have the confirmation.

    I know caffeine screws me up big time and is bad for adrenals but my sleep continues to be horrible and I find I keep coming back for some heavy-duty Pu-Erh tea. Today it made me somewhat jittery (right now!). But when I drink tea some of my old self comes back and feel my illness masked enough to say witty stuff.

    Have you found tea tolerable, having adrenal fatigue AND being a slow metabolizer?

    If I drop the caffeine I still sleep shitty but feel more the effects of my unbelievable low-quality sleep. I know some supplements give energy but honestly nothing like caffeine or dark chocolate (which is super inflammatory for my leaky gut so cannot take it). NONE of the adrenal herbs I tried do anything for me, and I even bought half a kilo of Ashwagandha and took heaped tablespoons for weeks with no effect. So much for all those studies and threads you can find praising it.
     
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  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I love tea, and for a couple of days it makes me feel better, but then I get a headache. I'm going to start taking some reishi with it, it's supposed to help tame down the caffeine. I don't know if it would suppress the good effects that you are having from caffeine, though.

    Coffee makes me really happy, even decaf, at least for a little while.

    I took reishi for about 6 months at one point and had a lot of improvement. What was I thinking, I quit it to try some of the resistant starches, and they all gave me horrible symptoms, and never went back to the reishi. Still have an old bottle of it and am determined to be consistent with it. I'm going to add in chaga this time, too. Those two mushrooms cover just about all bases.

    Are you still okay with kefir and cacao powder?
     
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  3. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    Nah kefir is bad for my leaky gut and so is cacao.

    Although raw goat milk kefir was pretty cool, I cannot obtain it anymore.

    Cacao drugs me big time, with my genetics I feel like some other people do on stronger stimulants I am quite sure. The effects are very positive however I suspect it is done on behalf of the sympathetic dominance/adrenal burnout aspect of chronic illness and "tense" personalities, and that is very harmful for us.

    Either caffeine or theobromine or even yohimbine that I tried back in the day tend to give me a rushed form of euphoria lingering with anxiety, more will give full blown anxiety with no positive effects. Typical neurotransmitter outburst. That is how hard drugs like cocaine work! o_O

    What brand of Reishi did you have success with? I wasted money with the Paradise Herbs brand, stay away from that company, nothing from them worked for me ever.
     
  4. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    You definitely have all of the symptom's of HPA-axis dysfunction. The question is, what is causing the HPA-axis to continue to malfunction?
     
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  5. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    We are losing our lifes to that question man.
     
  6. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I can't tolerate caffeine as well. Tiny amounts give me full blown anxiety / jitteryness and send me right to the loo.
    Just like you i'm a (very) slow metabolizer, caffeine is also very inflammatory to my small intestine and stomach.

    The cause of my adrenal fatigue is caused by something higher up in the chain namely the hypothalamus. I think that people who have tried all sorts of adrenal supplements to no avail have to look at problems higher up in the HPA-axis.
     
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  7. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @Thinktank i got a hypothalamus glandular but felt really bad on it. I can't exactly remember what but I had to stop it.

    What do yuu take For hypothalamus ?
     
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  8. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    Yep we are long past the phase of actually believing the problem lies in the adrenal gland themselves. The brain, immune system and gut are better candidates.

    But we are beating a dead horse here aren´t we. A dry, skeletal remainder of a horse... :bang-head:

    At least I CAN treat my leaky gut and see some positive effects, that´s something.
    Adrenal Fatigue (the name sucks I know but I like using it) I haven´t ever touched it no matter what the protocol. So elusive. Maybe this means that what people say about "HPA dysfunction" being a symptom of inflammation and autoimmunity is true and these are what need treatment to recover normal output of hormones and a healthy cyrcadian rhythm.
     
  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Someone I was talking to that has SAD said it's like chronic fatigue, but he only has it in the winter. He said coffee really helps him, so I was looking for which neurotransmitter to zoom in on. At first I thought the caffeine was working because it's an acetylcholinase inhibitor, but I don't see acetylcholine affecting that. It seems more like dopamine.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2018631
    Retinal melatonin and dopamine in seasonal affective disorder

    When I was thinking it was the caffeine's good effect on acetylcholine, I suggested that he take choline. But then since it appears to be more of a dopamine issue, I had to see if caffeine affected dopamine.

    Coffee...
    "By antagonizing the negative modulatory effects of adenosine receptors on dopamine receptors, caffeine leads to inhibition and blockade ofadenosine A2 receptors, causing potentiation of dopaminergic neurotransmission."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1908237/?tool=pmcentrez
    Changes in brain striatum dopamine and acetylcholine receptors induced by chronic CDP-choline treatment of aging mice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
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  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I honestly think, other than a rare series of SNP's, that the issue is caused by some sort of pathogen; virus, bacteria, protozoan, parasite, etc, 99% of the time. It could be a coinfection of a tick bite that your immune system keeps at bay for 20 years. It causes little to no symptoms, and then you have some stressful event that weakens your immune, and it comes back to life.
     
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  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Yes, this condition is so common at the Lyme forums. It affects the neurological system.
     
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  12. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    Sounds plausible but retired physician Jonathan Edwards here in the forum has a quite dissimilar etiologic hypothesis for autoimmunity (which is practically like saying chronic inflammation). He basically says it is a random occurence. Summarized by me sounds like crap haha but he arguments it well considering his extensive background with medical research and opposition to scientific group think (dogma). He opposes the idea of pathogens, stress or infections leading to autoimmunity. It is worthwhile reviewing his latest posts.

    I wouldn´t say I agree but is fascinating to have the opinion of someone so well-versed.

    Because its crystal clear to me that I am autoimmune I always refer to this framework. A lot of "modern diseases" are autoimmune.

    However, some people may have chronic infections as a root cause of their problems.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  13. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    You mean he thinks it's an undiscovered autoimmune condition?

    In that case, lets blast away with the prednisone and call it a day.
     
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  14. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
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  15. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    Yes dopamine is likely per studies but norephinephrine and noradrenaline can´t be out of the party. Quite intriguing how caffeine works but unfortunately it has a profound "burning out" effect, this is, functions like all true stimulants forcing your body to feel energetic at the expenses of the future. Healthy people can allow themselves this, as they allow themselves to eat gunk and stay up late, their body will make up for the abuse somewhat. But crazy-HPA-inflammed brain folks already live in a deficit and cannot take "adrenal loans".

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091305796001050

    Stimulants are a true dead end for sick people and a great way for healthy ones to get sick. And I am the guy that loves a good caffeine/theobromine/whatever kick. These are all just bandaids and recreational substances.
     
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  16. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    Not to mention what coffee does when rats are prenatally exposed to it *shudders*

    Caffeine is a definite factor of intrauterine growth retardation (IUGR). Previously, we have confirmed that prenatal caffeine ingestion inhibits the development of hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis, and alters the glucose and lipid metabolism in IUGR fetal rats.
     
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Yes, I agree. The information is merely clues.
     
  18. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    Try Redbush (Roibos) tea. You can drink it like normal black tea(is with milk). Caffeine free. Good for anxiety(works by lowering cortisol). You can get it in all supermarkets in the UK.
     
  19. Jensen

    Jensen

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    Does coffee make my energy worse in long term?I can't stop the coffee because it gives me so much energy (mental) ,I simply can not believe it's bad for my energy long term.I've read somewhere that coffee helps with production of energy-it activates the enzyme recycling AMP?
     
  20. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

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    Yes, Dr Myhill says:

    source: http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Central_Cause:_Mitochondrial_Failure

    I don't know if she's right but I cling to that line like a drowning woman to a life raft! I need coffee. Need it.
     

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