Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
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Caffeine effect?

Discussion in 'General Symptoms' started by Wolfcub, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. Wolfcub

    Wolfcub Senior Member

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    Hey...
    Can anyone help me understand why if I have a small coffee just before sleeping I will wake up in the morning feeling slightly better than if I don't?

    For about 40 years now I have always enjoyed one morning coffee, not strong but a really nice smooth blend of ground coffee without milk or sugar.

    A few weeks ago I was highly caffeine sensitive and had some nasty reactions from it, but a week or two later they went away -now this.
     
  2. KathMorcos

    KathMorcos

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    I use to drink 4 coffees a day, then all of a sudden I became really sensitive to it and can't even have a sip!
     
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  3. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    I was reading this only the other day on Sarah Myhill's site:
    http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Central_Cause:_Mitochondrial_Failure

    "And now for a bit of good news! AMP can be recycled, but slowly. Interestingly, the enzyme which does this (cyclic AMP) is activated by caffeine! So the perfect pick-me-up for CFS sufferers could be a real black organic coffee with a teaspoon of D-ribose!"
     
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  4. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    Coffee has serotonin, melatonin, and some b vitamins in it so that could explain why.
     
  5. Wolfcub

    Wolfcub Senior Member

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    Oh wowzers CCC! It's about time something we like can be good for us....sometimes perhaps? I haven't quite got to adding the D-ribose yet. But this is such an interesting article. Thank you very much!

    How about cake to go with that coffee....? lol I guess the answer is perhaps....sometimes....
    Blueberry cake. :D
     
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  6. datadragon

    datadragon Guest

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    Every time you drink something with caffeine like coffee, or alcohol you're activating the body's same fight or flight response. But instead of making cortisol and releasing adrenaline so the body can deal with a short term stressor like a tiger chasing you, the adrenals are doing so in response to your caffeine, or alcohol consumption exactly the same.
    Repeated doses of caffeine over a single day for example result in markedly increased cortisol levels, and this is independent of sex of the person or stressors they were already under.

    This gives you a temp boost in energy from the cortisol but since that is making the adrenals produce the cortisol, dhea, adrenaline etc from body resources, in those that are already low on those resources it will make things worse by further depleting them pushing you closer to adrenal exhaustion.

    Cortisol prevents cells from losing sodium and accelerates the rate of potassium excretion. A high calcium to potassium if you dont compensate will slow the thyroid down, causing weight gain among other things from the constant cortisol from the stressors.

    You could try instead 3 oz Orange Juice, 3 oz Coconut Water (I use 365 whole food brand), 1/4 tsp Himalayan Sea Salt, 1/4 tsp Cream of Tartar (I get mine at whole food). This would give you around 500mg potassium and some sodium and small amt of other electrolytes and whole vitamin c helping to boost the adrenals more properly helping them to restore lost levels rather then depleting them like caffeine and giving some energy. I do this 2x a day around 10a and 2p usually.

    While still up and functional I used Trace Elements Adrenal Complex, which would give you some cortisol without the drug issues and supporting vitamins lessening the burden on the adrenals and might help to let your resources recharge a bit then go off them. Just keep in mind this can mobilize stored metals and you may then have to deal with liver/bile flow and detox such as using pectaclear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    This quote seems much more likely:
     
  8. datadragon

    datadragon Guest

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8039038
    The obese mice without caffeine treatment had lower brain norepinephrine and epinephrine levels than the lean controls. And there had no difference between obese and lean mice in brain levels of serotonin, tryptophan, and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid. He wasn't obese by the way, just hadnt been able to get to the gym.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...stressed-out/766A58A46F537EA85FB5CB9AEDF33552
    Cortisol leads to depression. Yes it can impact serotonin, they mean negatively. From what I can see this is just due first to some of the vitamins and minerals depleted from stress over time like magnesium, zinc, and B6 (which needs those to convert) which are all required to make serotonin. Under longer stress your stomach acid drops and this too is needed. Copper that can accumulate when zinc drops can further mess with oxytocin and dopamine, causing a loss of pleasure/happiness in things which is atypical depression.
    https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ical-and-here-is-why.44230/page-6#post-982153

    Its from the boost in energy from the cortisol. When your low on cortisol, you will feel better temporarily with anything that raises it, but if your body isnt making cortisol at regular levels without its use, then you are depleting yourself more and progressing your problems. The adrenal drink will help some.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  9. datadragon

    datadragon Guest

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    https://nootriment.com/serotonin-and-caffeine/
    Caffeine’s immediate effect on the body is to increase serotonin production and the total number of serotonin receptors.
    In addition to raising serotonin levels temporarily, consumption of caffeine may also increase the number of serotonin receptors in the brain by up to 30 percent.

    Because of the increased number of receptors, the brain needs more serotonin to function normally. When caffeine is withdrawn, this phenomenon exacerbates the symptoms of serotonin depletion.

    However, once the caffeine is eliminated from your body, serotonin levels fall precipitously. In addition, caffeine actually inhibits the body’s ability to produce normal amounts of serotonin by inhibiting pathways involving some of the minerals and chemicals it needs to make the neurotransmitter. (thats the part I was mentioning)

    This can lead to many uncomfortable symptoms and further cravings for caffeine.
     
  10. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    Hmm I think I was thinking about beer, and melatonin/serotinin because

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14592218

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2018
  11. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    yes
    https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...its-relevance-to-cfs.43995/page-2#post-982825

    I became progressively intolerant to coffee while my CFS/ME worsened with time , and while my TSH and T3 went down the hill.

    Now that I take T3 once a day, the beneficial energy effect of coffee is back, let's hope it will stay that way...:thumbsup:

    https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/t3-intracellular-calcium-and-caffeine.60206/
     
  12. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    And we've found that black tea with d-ribose is essential for energy. It's doesn't give a hit like caffeine, but a few days without it and things just start to slow down.
     
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  13. denmarker

    denmarker

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    i tried some coffee now and then to test if i get less fatigue from
     
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  14. Wolfcub

    Wolfcub Senior Member

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    Well the on-going thing is I cannot tell from one day to the next if coffee (only one!) in the morning will make me feel weird or not. Some days it gives me shakes, some days it sits well. And the thing is -it is one of my pleasures in life. Many were the times that looking forward to that coffee got me out of bed and going on those horrible bleak grey wet November mornings!
    But my reaction now is unpredictable. Yet most often a coffee in the middle of the night is fine, and doesn't even stop me sleeping. It's just mornings that give me the shakes sometimes.
     
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