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BPSers using new research to justify psychological treatments

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
There's is nothing to suggest Carla didn't have ME, and lots to suggest she did (viral trigger, reported symptoms).

Carla's probably made up anyway.

And even if Carla wasn't an ME case, this scenario is exactly what people with 'real' ME encounter every day, and theses kinds of therapists will tell just the same sort of stories about how they helped them 'recover' by finding the source of their stress.

So do you think this stuff is all okay when applied to sad/burned out people, but just not to us? I certainly don't.
ME/CFS is a real disease with a defined etiology, and the lack of a specific test is very annoying because a diagnosis by exclusion unfortunately leads to many false positives. Once we have a proven test then we can say for "sure" Carla does not have it with a test. Perhaps she did have it and the recovery was spontaneous but coincidental, not common but possible.
Many diseases mimic other diseases, which also makes none of the above diagnosis more fraught, i know people who have been diagnosed with the wrong thing and taken many doctors and years to get to the right diagnosis (including myself), the symptoms weren't clear, the doc made a mistake, had no experience with the actual condition, it took time to delineate, or cross symptomology (i've been around the block many times).
If we deny other conditions with fatigue exist then we are lying to protect ourselves, but we don't need to do so at all, since our condition is real. Whether Carla exists or not matters because we hope the case study isn't a lie, but even if she is fake people do get severe depression and not want to go out. Its a real condition too (though its not actually a "biochemical imbalance", but thats another discussion entirely)
 
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Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
ME/CFS is a real disease with a defined etiology,
No. It hasn't got a defined aetiology.
Once we have a proven test then we can say for "sure" Carla does not have it with a test.
No, no, no! Once we have a test, there will still be people who are negative on it, but are genuinely very ill.
Perhaps she did have it and the recovery was spontaneous but coincidental, not common but possible.
Yes, she could have gone into remission. It was early stages for her so her chances were good. Or perhaps - which I suspect more likely - the therapist read way too much into Carla's polite comments.
If we deny other conditions with fatigue exist then we are lying to protect ourselves, but we don't need to do so at all, since our condition is real.
I do not. There are lots of conditions with fatigue. These include lupus, MS, cancer, stroke. This will be equally unameneable to this type of 'therapy'.

MECFS itself could be a whole collection of different diseases each with different aetiologies - lots of different fatiguing illnesses. None of which are likely to be cured by talk therapy.

What you're really talking about, of course, is fatigue with 'psychological' causes. Like depression or burnout. Depression is a can of worms and is a discussion for another day, but I think a lot of forms of depression are not curable through talk therapy.
even if she is fake people do get severe depression and not want to go out. Its a real condition too
No. This does not fit with the case description. She does not talk like a person with depression ("I don't really know what I'm even doing here, I don't see the point of it, or of anything any more, nothing I used to like interests me any more, I just feel so sad/numb all the time" etc.). She talks like a person who's ill.

Never mind Carla, she probably isn't real. The point here is that we have got to stop questioning everyone else's stories and suggesting those other people are probably just depressed. We want our doctors to consider our illnesses as real, not psychological. Let's start by setting a good example ourselves.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
No. It hasn't got a defined aetiology.

No, no, no! Once we have a test, there will still be people who are negative on it, but are genuinely very ill.
Its certainly possible they have something else and have fallen under the umbrella, but if a disease has no etiology then research is a dead end because your results will be so contradictory you can never work on a treatment or even define its mechanism.

Yes, she could have gone into remission. It was early stages for her so her chances were good. Or perhaps - which I suspect more likely - the therapist read way too much into Carla's polite comments.
I agree that she probably did not have ME/CFS

I do not. There are lots of conditions with fatigue. These include lupus, MS, cancer, stroke. This will be equally unameneable to this type of 'therapy'.
I agree, treating physical conditions with counseling would be like trying to treat hunger with homeopathy.

MECFS itself could be a whole collection of different diseases each with different aetiologies - lots of different fatiguing illnesses.
It could be, but there does seem to be a ME/CFS condition, otherwise there would be no heterogeneity in any research study, or perhaps many roads lead to Rome. We do not have enough information at this point to come to any supportable conclusions

None of which are likely to be cured by talk therapy.
True

What you're really talking about, of course, is fatigue with 'psychological' causes. Like depression or burnout. Depression is a can of worms and is a discussion for another day, but I think a lot of forms of depression are not curable through talk therapy.
Agreed, though depression is not a biochemical imbalance, and yes i have had this argument in detail on other threads.

No. This does not fit with the case description. She does not talk like a person with depression ("I don't really know what I'm even doing here, I don't see the point of it, or of anything any more, nothing I used to like interests me any more, I just feel so sad/numb all the time" etc.). She talks like a person who's ill.
She sounds possibly suicidal

Never mind Carla, she probably isn't real. The point here is that we have got to stop questioning everyone else's stories and suggesting those other people are probably just depressed. We want our doctors to consider our illnesses as real, not psychological. Let's start by setting a good example ourselves.
We convince others to consider our illness real by not falling for lies, accepting uncomfortable truths (which in this case does not really apply except if we accept ridiculous statements like depression can't cause malaise) and by figuring out a disease mechanism/doing more research. I have mentioned this many times on PR, narcolepsy was considered psychological for centuries because its onset usually comes from a traumatic event (psychological, mental, physical), sufferers dream incessantly and smash into REM asleep randomly. The dream analysis theory had a zero percent success rate yet it was not abandoned until Orexin was discovered (a neurochemical) and its deficiency was proven to be the cause of narcolepsy. This actually happened in recent history, 2001 iirc.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512

PhoenixDown

Senior Member
Messages
456
Location
UK
Chris Gilbert said:
We now know, from research at Kaiser and elsewhere, that severe stress like Carla’s is the root cause of 80% of physical symptoms that drive patients to primary care doctors.
80%? What a quack. Just like Esther Crawley she claims it is a physical illness but in the end treats it as a psychological/behavioural one.
 

Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
We now know, from research at Kaiser and elsewhere, that severe stress like Carla’s is the root cause of 80% of physical symptoms that drive patients to primary care doctors.
That % keeps going up. Pretty soon it will everybody.