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BMJ comments on new PACE trial data analysis

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
I think there are also some hard methodological problems in running such a trial. PACE ignored them. But how to create an adequate control and how to properly measure improvements are both hard especially with this type of technique. I think it is slightly less problematic with blinded placebo controlled trials. But there is still a question of how to measure and why different measures don't correlate.

With pacing I assume it would need to be quite a long duration trial if people are gradually improving?

Reply

Yes, there are a considerable number of methodological problems that would be involved in designing a clinical trail that would be sufficiently robust to demonstrate to a very sceptical medical profession that the type of pacing that is recommended by The MEA, and consistently reported by people with ME/CFS to be a safe and effective form of management, is something they should be recommending to their patients.

And without this sort of evidence based medicine, it is going to be very difficult to produce a significant shift in medical opinion.

This is something that we have obviously discussed with our research colleagues here in the UK, and on my visits to researchers overseas. Ana as I've already indicated, here in the UK we have not been able to find a group of hospital based physicians with the capacity to carry out such are trial who want to do so.

The MEA Ramsay Research Fund would be very willing to help fund and co-ordinate this type of much needed research into the value of pacing. But it would have to be 'help fund' because the cost of carrying out a robust and large trial that could be used to challenge PACE would be well outside what we could afford to fund.

In the meantime we are therefore concentrating our research efforts and funding on the underlying disease mechanisms which help to explain why people with ME/CFS have both central (brain) and peripheral (muscle) fatigue.

This includes the research at the Universities of Liverpool and Newcastle on mitochondrial dysfunction, a study in London being carried out by Dr Amolak Bansal, which will include immunological and cognitive responses to an exercise challenge, and another study that is looking at HPA responses to activity/exercise.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Reply

type of pacing that is recommended by The MEA, and consistently reported by people with ME/CFS to be a safe

The first thing of course is to have a well defined pacing method. When I read stuff on pacing it seems to a kind of similar basis to it but people seem to have a range of different techniques.


This is something that we have obviously discussed with our research colleagues here in the UK, and on my visits to researchers overseas. Ana as I've already indicated, here in the UK we have not been able to find a group of hospital based physicians with the capacity to carry out such are trial who want to do so.

I had assumed that Lenny Jason had done work in this area but never really looked?

In the meantime we are therefore concentrating our research efforts and funding on the underlying disease mechanisms which help to explain why people with ME/CFS have both central (brain) and peripheral (muscle) fatigue.

This includes the research at the Universities of Liverpool and Newcastle on mitochondrial dysfunction, a study in London being carried out by Dr Amolak Bansal, which will include immunological and cognitive responses to an exercise challenge, and another study that is looking at HPA responses to activity/exercise.

That all sound like good stuff particularly the study with Bansal. One concern I have with exercise challenge studies is if patients already have an exercise challenge in getting to the hospital (public transport and parking can be a challenge) prior to the actual measurements and exercise tests. It should all be part of the protocol but I wonder if doctors realize the problems patients can have with transport.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
The first thing of course is to have a well defined pacing method. When I read stuff on pacing it seems to a kind of similar basis to it but people seem to have a range of different techniques.




I had assumed that Lenny Jason had done work in this area but never really looked?



That all sound like good stuff particularly the study with Bansal. One concern I have with exercise challenge studies is if patients already have an exercise challenge in getting to the hospital (public transport and parking can be a challenge) prior to the actual measurements and exercise tests. It should all be part of the protocol but I wonder if doctors realize the problems patients can have with transport.

Reply

Yes, there are clearly a number of differing views amongst the charities, research funders and clinicians as to what constitutes pacing.

And that is another challenge when it comes to designing a clinical trial. As you will be aware, the type of pacing used in the PACE trial was not consistent with the model that we recommend.

The point about patients having to travel to hospital and then take part in some form of exercise challenge research is again very valid. This is something that The MEA takes very seriously in any type of research that we are funding in this area. It does, of course, mean that the subjects being recruited are not normally people with moderate or severe ME/CFS.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
On-line submission from The MEA - awaiting BMJ moderation/approval:

The ME Association believes that energy management, which involves both physical and mental activity, is the most important aspect of managing ME/CFS.

Consequently, we welcome research which aims to improve our knowledge of how this can best be achieved.

Energy management programmes must be individually tailored. And they have to take account of the wide range of clinical presentations and disease pathways that come under the ME/CFS umbrella.

We are therefore very critical of over-simplistic exercise regimes which are based on deconditioning, fear of activity and the assumption that people just need to ‘try harder’ in order to get better. Many people with this condition are, in fact, performing at or near their maximum capacity. And some need to actually reduce their activity levels and stabilise their condition before starting any form of increase in activity levels.

In addition, the approach being recommended does not acknowledge the muscle, brain and immune system abnormalities in ME/CFS, which help to provide a physical explanation for the debilitating central (brain) and peripheral (muscle) fatigue that occurs in this illness.

Feedback from patients, who are not normally treated as part of research studies, consistently indicates that around 25% find exercise programmes to be of no value. Around 50% report that their condition worsens as a result.

So the real reason why cognitive behaviour therapy and graded exercise therapy are not producing significant benefits across the whole ME/CFS population is that they are based on a flawed model of illness causation. They are are not taking account of the medical complexities involved.

In our experience, patients with ME/CFS are highly motivated to get better.

They are very willing to take part in energy management programmes that establish a safe baseline of activity, take account of the stage and severity of their illness, involve increases in physical and mental activity that are gradual, flexible and do not result in the person going beyond their limitations and causing symptom exacerbation.

We fear that the way the results of this study are being presented in the media and in the medical press will be interpreted to reinforce the over-simplistic and misguided view that rest is bad and exercise is good for people with ME/CFS.

And without discussing the medical complexities involved, people are then led to the conclusion that any reluctance to progressively increase activity levels is far more related to fear or avoidance behaviour than any underlying disease process.

What we desperately need are high quality research studies that are aimed at producing a range of individual energy management programmes based on clinical presentation, stage, and severity of illness.

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, ME Association


Update:

I cannot disclose everything that is 'going on behind the scenes' in relation to what has happened this week but as the correspondence from Professor Mark VanNess has been placed in the public domain on the NIMEA website, this is an email that I have just sent to Mark:

Dear Mark

I saw your excellent reply to Joan Mcparland on this subject on the Northern Ireland ME Alliance website.

The various points you have made would form a very helpful contribution to the rapid response debate currently taking place on the BMJ website:
http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h227/rapid-responses

And in the current absence of any robust evidence from replicated clinical trials that support the use of pacing, I think it would also be very helpful if a group of international physicians and researchers who do not agree with the GET treatment model could get together and produce a joint letter expressing our concerns.

We could also summarise the evidence that does exist (obviously including what your group have been doing with exercise physiology testing) in support of what almost all patients (and many doctors) believe: that pacing is a far more effective and safe method of activity and energy management.

Regards
Dr Charles ShepherdHon Medical Adviser, MEA

Letter to Joan Mcparland:

"Dear Joan,

I was saddened to see the press releases regarding the ME/CFS studies from Kings College London.

It seems to me they’ve once again missed important nuances of the disease. Nearly all ME/CFS sufferers would either avoid or drop out of any experiment that employed exercise as a treatment because they know it exacerbates symptoms. The remaining subjects would either be very high functioning or consist of fatigued individuals that were incorrectly diagnosed as ME/CFS. Our studies clearly show that dynamic exercise like walking or jogging exacerbates symptoms associated with ME/CFS.

Fear and avoidance of what worsens symptoms is a natural defense mechanism against a harmful stimulus. In fact, many researchers here in the U.S. utilize graded aerobic exercise as a tool to worsen and amplify ME/CFS symptoms – not as a treatment meant to be beneficial.

The therapeutic interventions we use are meant to improve quality of life for ME/CFS patients. These interventions focus primarily on strengthening muscles and improving range of motion; activities that get energy from normally functioning anaerobic metabolic mechanisms rather than impaired aerobic energy pathways. We even provide tools like heart rate monitors to help patients avoid significant aerobic exertion.

Fear of exercise is an understandable response in ME/CFS. For a patient with ME/CFS the fear of exercise is a reasonable, knowledgeable, and learned response to a noxious stimulus. If ME/CFS patients could exercise away their symptoms they most certainly would, regardless of the pain. But that is not the case.

Our exercise physiologists carefully avoid aerobic exercise (which worsens the pathologies) and focus activity programs that utilize intact metabolic pathways with strength training and recumbent stretching (that help alleviate symptoms). These exercise recommendations are consistent with our understanding of ME/CFS pathology.

We would all hope that ME/CFS was viewed with attention given to immunological, metabolic, cardiovascular and neuroendocrinological dysfunction that has been demonstrated with previous research.

Good luck to you and your organization as you help us all accurately portray this illness.

Sincerely,

J. Mark VanNess, Ph.D.
Professor; Departments of Health and Exercise Science and Bioengineering
University of the Pacific
Stockton, California, USA"
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I want to briefly mention an alternative and why we cannot do it. One thing that could discredit PACE would be a properly done CBT/GET trial, with careful objective markers, careful patient selection according to recent (e.g. CCC) and obsolete criteria (like Oxford) as one comparison arm, and outcome measures that include harms that are found in the patient population. However, given that we are starting from position that this is dangerous. there are immediate ethical barriers. One has to presume that this therapy is harmless in order to conduct clinical trials. So opposition studies are not going to happen.

Which leaves things like pacing, underlying pathophysiology and a cause to research.

I do appreciate that lack of funding is stopping us at every turn. One thing that the biopsychosocial views promise (and to my view fail to deliver on) is health care and disability and unemployment benefits savings. Yet I think we can make a case, when applying for funding, that false savings that do not address the issues and lead to even higher costs and more problems might be a good thing to investigate. If there were a study of the financial and secondary costs arising out of a CBT/GET clinic, though perhaps it would require permission to use their medical records. It would also require secondary costs and issues to be measured. In order to do something like this I envisage a pilot study would be needed to identify what measures need to be looked at in a larger study. It would however bypass the ethical issue of treating patients with this therapy since they are already being treated.
 

Tom Kindlon

Senior Member
Messages
1,734
Here's a short* BMJ e-letter I wrote in reply to an annoying comment on the BMJ site
http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h227/rr-4

Prevalence of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in different countries

Timothy M Jordan wonders whether Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME) or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) "actually exist in less industrial societies" [1]. Some data exists on this. A study in Nigeria found a prevalence for CFS of 0.68% [2]. By comparison, a research team from the same institution and involving a common researcher had previously found a prevalence rate of 0.422% in the US [3].

References:

1. Jordan TM. Re: Tackling fears about exercise is important for ME treatment, analysis indicates. BMJ Rapid Responsehttp://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h227/rr

2. Njoku MG, Jason LA, Torres-Harding SR. The prevalence of chronic fatigue syndrome in Nigeria. J Health Psychol. 2007 May;12(3):461-74.

3. Jason LA, Richman JA, Rademaker AW, Jordan KM, Plioplys AV, Taylor RR, McCready W, Huang CF, Plioplys S. A community-based study of chronic fatigue syndrome. Arch Intern Med. 1999 Oct 11;159(18):2129-37.

Competing interests: I am a committee member of the Irish ME/CFS Association and perform various types of voluntary work for the Association.


*actually it could be described as very short
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
@charles shepherd
Feedback from patients, who are not normally treated as part of research studies, consistently indicates that around 25% find exercise programmes to be of no value. Around 50% report that their condition worsens as a result.
I'm not sure this is phrased well. I assume that you don't mean that patients are not normally treated as part of research studies. If so, then who is? Genuinely confused (which may mean others are as well) (or I'm just stupid)!
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
You do and I do but new patients don't

Which calls for education for new patients, not more research on how to rest.


One of the key reasons why it's difficut to challenge the claims relating to GET is that we don't really have any sound 'evidence based medicine' with results from large robust and replicated clinical trials

Or maybe it's because we are dealing with a corrupt and incompetent system.

Charles, I don't doubt that you support biomedical research. Why not call for that, as loudly as you can, at every opportunity?
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
One of the key reasons why it's difficut to challenge the claims relating to GET is that we don't really have any sound 'evidence based medicine' with results from large robust and replicated clinical trials

GET is unblinded, no placebo groups. That doesn't qualify as large robust EBM trial either.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
The original 2011 study attracted much criticism over its definitions of secondary outcomes, protocol changes, and generalisability, and the results were disputed.

I know it's not much and that they've missed out important details... but this is better than the BMJ being all 'patients reacted furiously to the claim that psychological therapies could be of use"
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
Which calls for education for new patients, not more research on how to rest.

And how can doctors inform new pateints without putting themselve at risk if there is no guideline? Long term patients experience is not good enough.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
And how can doctors inform new pateints without putting themselve at risk if there is no guideline? Long term patients experience is not good enough.


Well, I'm looking at the ICC Primer, which I'm sure you'll agree is a guideline to doctors. On Page 15 there is an extensive discussion of the Energy Budget/Bank.

I also have a copy of "ME/CFS: A Primer for Clinical Practitioners" , published by IACFS/ME. It has a discussion on energy management on page 20.

I can't find my copy of the CCC document, but I'm pretty sure it also discusses these issues. So the information is in the literature. Certainly these guidelines would be more widely available and read if the CDC would link to those documents instead of their ridiculous "Tool kit".
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
The point about patients having to travel to hospital and then take part in some form of exercise challenge research is again very valid. This is something that The MEA takes very seriously in any type of research that we are funding in this area. It does, of course, mean that the subjects being recruited are not normally people with moderate or severe ME/CFS.

In Australia the researchers are going to the patients so they can include housebound/bedbound patients. Perhaps UK and US researchers could do the same...
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
@charles shepherd

I'm not sure this is phrased well. I assume that you don't mean that patients are not normally treated as part of research studies. If so, then who is? Genuinely confused (which may mean others are as well) (or I'm just stupid)!

Reply

Apologies if this is not clear. I was trying to explain that patients who respond to our surveys are not normally being treated as part of research studies/clinical trials. Consequently, most people who take part in our surveys have not been treated in centres where the CBT and GET research studies/clinical trials have been carried out - with a few exceptions. It may well be that this is one of the main reasons for the vast discrepancy between the results in these patient surveys and the results from the RCTsthat are carried out in specialist referral centres here in the UK.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Which calls for education for new patients, not more research on how to rest.




Or maybe it's because we are dealing with a corrupt and incompetent system.

Charles, I don't doubt that you support biomedical research. Why not call for that, as loudly as you can, at every opportunity?

Reply

If you have been following the press interviews I have been doing here in the UK, as well as the media statements, I/we have been calling for more biomedical research into ME/CFS.

But the main message at the moment as far as the UK media is concerned has to be challenging the conclusions and recommendations that have emerged from this new analysis of the PACE trial data.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
GET is unblinded, no placebo groups. That doesn't qualify as large robust EBM trial either.

Reply

I'm afraid we have to live in the real world! As far as my medical colleagues are concerned, and most important of all that includes NICE, the PACE trial is a perfectly sound piece of evidence based medicine. That is the problem we face here in the UK and is why we really do need similar 'evidence based medicine' in relation to the safety and efficacy of pacing.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
In Australia the researchers are going to the patients so they can include housebound/bedbound patients. Perhaps UK and US researchers could do the same...

Yes, we also do clinical assessment work at home where this is appropriate with MEA funded research studies.

For example, we are collecting blood samples through home visits from a cohort of people with severe ME/CFS for the ME Biobank that we fund at the Royal Free Hospital in London.

But it's just not possible to do this in research that involves an exercise challenge where you are wanting to do cardiopulmonary testing using quite complex equipment.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Well, I'm looking at the ICC Primer, which I'm sure you'll agree is a guideline to doctors. On Page 15 there is an extensive discussion of the Energy Budget/Bank.

I also have a copy of "ME/CFS: A Primer for Clinical Practitioners" , published by IACFS/ME. It has a discussion on energy management on page 20.

I can't find my copy of the CCC document, but I'm pretty sure it also discusses these issues. So the information is in the literature. Certainly these guidelines would be more widely available and read if the CDC would link to those documents instead of their ridiculous "Tool kit".

Reply:

Here in the UK there is extensive guidance on the debate into the use of CBT, GET and Pacing in our 52 page clinical guidelines booklet for health professionals. The problem is getting health professionals to accept that the information they are being given by NICE on CBT, GET and Pacing may not be the best way of managing their ME/CFS patients.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Reply

I'm afraid we have to live in the real world! As far as my medical colleagues are concerned, and most important of all that includes NICE, the PACE trial is a perfectly sound piece of evidence based medicine. That is the problem we face here in the UK and is why we really do need similar 'evidence based medicine' in relation to the safety and efficacy of pacing.

But the medical profession has shown that it's perfectly happy to claim expertise it does not hold. Conducting similarly problematic trials to compete against theirs, while ignoring the problems with this, is likely to just end up giving patients another load of pointless instructions to follow. I understand the point about the 'real world' but the need for political pragmatism should not mean that important and legitimate points are given up upon just because they are not welcomed by those currently in positions of power. We may have to play by their rules in a fixed game, but we should be consistently pointing out the problems with this and trying to change the rules themselves.

Personally, I don't think that any of the models for pacing I've seen have been helpful, and see the value of 'pacing' as a term as being in enabling patients to construct their own approaches to managing their illness free from medical assistance and interference. While we have such a poor understanding of the cause of patient's ill health I'm not comfortable recommending pacing, CBT, GET or anything of the sort, and think that there needs to be an openness to the possibility that medical experts do not have much to offer some patients so should just leave them alone.
 
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