AIDS Study Finds No XMRV

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Wow, antivirals. Hadn't thought of that. The paper doesn't say whether they have actual AIDS or are on HAART. However, Ix is right, indeed it seems fully half of them were HIV-. The subjects are "562 men infected with HIV and 434 [gay] men at risk for infection."

 

[Karin]

I think the idea of looking for XMRV in HIV infected men was a great one. Since XMRV is likely transmissible through blood and semen, it makes sense that people at risk for HIV and Hepatitis B would also be more at risk for XMRV than the general population. So since the risks are the same, the prevalence of XMRV-positive people should be higher in HIV-positive people than in other groups, in the same way than people positive for Hep B were more likely to be HIV-positive as well.

Also, the prevalence would be higher in other groups at risk through blood and sex: transfusion patients, open-heart surgery patients, hemophiliacs, IV drug users and prostitutes who do not use safe-sex/safe-IV practices.

Has someone looked at the prevalence of CFS in people who had open-heart surgery or in hemophiliacs?

I found this related to the prevalence of psychiatric disorders in these two groups and found that yes, both groups have a lot of 'mental' issues, that are attributed to the stress they are going through. Of course, let's always blame it on stress. I have not found much about CFS but it might not be well documented or might fall under the 'psychiatric' umbrella.

Psychiatric disorders in hemophilic patients
http://priory.com/fam/hemophil.htm

Prevalence of various psychopathologic problems among hemophiliac patients was significant. Sixty seven percent of them were anxious,60% were depressed,60% showed aggressive characteristics,72% had obsessive-compulsive traits and 71%had psychiatric features while 52% showed somatization characteristics.

Mood and Personality Changes after Bypass Surgery
http://heartdisease.about.com/lw/He...-Personality-Changes-after-Bypass-Surgery.htm

Karin

 

[Dr. Yes]

This group, again, did not use a PCR methodology that according to the WPI and to Frank Ruscetti would be likely to detect XMRV. At this point I wish every subject line in every article or blog post that refers to a negative study like this would include the phrase : "..with different methodology" (I am tempted to say "wrong methodology"). In that spirit, perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "AIDS Study with Diff Method finds no XMRV"...

 

[ixchelkali]

This group, again, did not use a PCR methodology that according to the WPI and to Frank Ruscetti would be likely to detect XMRV. At this point I wish every subject line in every article or blog post that refers to a negative study like this would include the phrase : "..with different methodology" (I am tempted to say "wrong methodology"). In that spirit, perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "AIDS Study with Diff Method finds no XMRV"...

That's really a shame, because if they had used a test that was actually known to find XMRV when it's there, this would have been a very interesting study. It would be good to know how HIV and XMRV interact. It might also have provided useful epidemiological information about transmission.

I wish they would standardize a test that works. Then we might be able to trust the studies to give us meaningful data.

 

[Rita]

Why are they so interested to test everybody but not CFS patients, what a waste of money for us.For years , they have no money for CFS serious research.
The more I know about the history of CFS , the more I think about conspiracy,political and health secrets someone knows but ignored for most physicians.There are surely very important people who dont want we know the truth, we see that the last days..and years.I think its not only because the cost of the antiretroviral treatment, but for somenthing else.

 

[Hope123]

It would have been interesting if someone would test for XMRV in people with HIV who are FAILING antiretrovirals. That underground Youtube video with Dr. Peterson in Madrid commenting that he (as well as the questioner?) had seen HIV+ patients with what appeared to be CFS sticks in my mind.

Other issues would be that the German study looked at respiratory secretions and this one looked at blood, whether these blood samples were archived (I haven't looked at this paper yet), and whether the immunocompromise seen in HIV is the same as that seen in organ transplant patients. States of immunocompromise are not all the same depending on which parts of the immune system are affected and how they are affected; even if we think they are the same, they might not be as there are many things about the immune system we don't know yet.

 

[taniaaust1]

Im very happy about this study as it shows just how hard this virus is to find and hence is just another evidence that the negative CFS studies in finding it are also mistakes. The cat is out of the bag.. XMRV will be looked for in various illnesses (ones with more funding then us!!).. some will find it, others wont. This is bound to happen till there is offically a proper way to find it. At such time many more studies on XMRV and CFS will happen and it will be found in us in higher rates than the general community.

There is no way the cat is going back into the bag.. things are just going to take a little time thou.

Hearing about this study has made my day! I laughed at this study.

Its funny how these negative studies tend to try to blame other things for their completely negative results.. eg they blamed that it wasnt in the AIDS communities or they blame the regions for not finding it .. rather than say their study processes themselves may have been at fault for the negatives

Has someone looked at the prevalence of CFS in people who had open-heart surgery or in hemophiliacs?

Interesting point, ive NEVER come across a CFSer who was also a hemophiliac (in real life i used to know a hemophiliac who doesnt have CFS). i think this points towards that there is something wrong with our systems already which makes us more suspectable to XMRV. (maybe that very thing which made the WPI take a look at XMRV in the first place, what's it called?.. i have brain fog now and cant remember what it was called.. but the early non CFS XMRV studies pointed to it).

 

[Chris]

Hi; I recall that Cheney somewhere speculates that if you have both HIV and XMRV, you are dead or will quickly die--anyone else recall that? Chris

 

[taniaaust1]

Hi; I recall that Cheney somewhere speculates that if you have both HIV and XMRV, you are dead or will quickly die--anyone else recall that? Chris

ahh ..something like that also could explain the neg results.. thanks for that idea.

 

[Impish]

It could also be that in fact XMRV is not there...

 

[guest]

It could also be that in fact XMRV is not there...

Not even the 3-4% standard infections?

 

[capemark]

Defective RNase L enzyme in both some Prostate Cancer cells and in some CFS patients

Interesting point, ive NEVER come across a CFSer who was also a hemophiliac (in real life i used to know a hemophiliac who doesnt have CFS). i think this points towards that there is something wrong with our systems already which makes us more suspectable to XMRV. (maybe that very thing which made the WPI take a look at XMRV in the first place, what's it called?.. i have brain fog now and cant remember what it was called.. but the early non CFS XMRV studies pointed to it).

To Tania in Australia,

You're thinking of the defective, low molecular weight (37 kd) enzyme RNase L found in both CFS patients and in some prostate cancer cells (although I don't know if the enzyme was low molecular weight in prostate cancer, it was a unique form of it) which is part of the anti-viral RNase L 2-5a synthetase antiviral pathway which activates interferon. (I'm astonished you couldn't remember this! )

Mark Elliott

 

[Doogle]

It was a correlation to a mutation in a gene controlling the enzyme in the early XMRV prostate cancer studies. It hasn't been replicated in later XMRV prostate cancer studies, nor was it found to be significant in ME/CFS patients in the Science study.

 

[Esther12]

Not even the 3-4% standard infections?

Yeah.

We certainly don't know that 3-4% of people are infected with XMRV yet. It's all still really up in the air at the moment. Which is a bit of a nightmare.

I really wish the NIH/FDA report had just been published so we could have a look for ourselves. No matter how strong it was it wouldn't have settled things, but it would have helped us make more sensible guesses.

 

[SOC]

Yeah.
I really wish the NIH/FDA report had just been published so we could have a look for ourselves. No matter how strong it was it wouldn't have settled things, but it would have helped us make more sensible guesses.

Two top-notch papers in the leading science journals would be a powerhouse punch, scientifically. PLOs and Retrovirology are midgets by comparison. Even BMJ doesn't rank up there with Science and PNAS. Very few scientists would be arguing with the general conclusions. Of course, there's always discussion and disagreement about many details, and some scientist who just flat don't believe and want further testing, but that's good science. :Retro smile:

That isn't to say politics wouldn't play its games. Politics always plays its games.
Scientifically, though, we'd be over the hump and well on the path to validation if the (original) Alter paper was published.

That's what I hope, anyway.

 

[taniaaust1]

To Tania in Australia,

You're thinking of the defective, low molecular weight (37 kd) enzyme RNase L found in both CFS patients and in some prostate cancer cells (although I don't know if the enzyme was low molecular weight in prostate cancer, it was a unique form of it) which is part of the anti-viral RNase L 2-5a synthetase antiviral pathway which activates interferon. (I'm astonished you couldn't remember this! )

Mark Elliott

lol thanks heaps for supplying the info for everyone. Im not too annoyed at myself for not being able to remember this

 

[Mithriel]

Since antiretrovirals have worked against XMRV in vitro, it seems really stupid to have looked for it in men who were HIV+.

ME was always associated with professions who mixed more with children so gay men may well have less XMRV than other groups.

Thinking about other illnesses, it is unlikely they would be diagnosed with CFS after heart surgery, or whatever as any fatigue they experienced would be put down to the original illness.

The distinguishing marker of ME/CFS, the post exertional malaise, for want of a better term, is not going to show up if they are already so ill they do not do very much. If they never exceed the "ME limit" they will not get the end point effects we think of as ME/CFS.

It will be an interesting study to do once we have a proper test for XMRV.

I agree with other posters. Why on earth do they not do studies with people who have ME rather than these other groups?

Mithriel