The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Sidereal]

I ran into a similar problem a few months ago when I was hit with really severe symptoms consistent with an ulcer. I'd been experimenting too much with various herbal anti-inflammatories. I learned from this experience that I can't take any of that stuff.

Anyway, I panicked because 1) I could never undergo an endoscopy given how sick I am and 2) I figured I would have to go off RS and other stuff (the only thing that's ever helped my ME). After a few days of judicious PPI use and not taking any pro/prebiotics for a week or so things seem to resolve themselves. It was really frightening, @Sasha, so I totally understand how you feel. Like you I kept thinking what am I going to take to kill H. pylori given what we know about antibiotic damage. I do think, though, if things had continued I would have taken a course of triple therapy to get rid of it because the damage from the bacteria could be worse on the whole than from a short course of abx. That's just my personal opinion.

I came across a study at the time showing that PPI + amoxicillin + berberine was more effective than PPI + amoxicillin + clarithromycin. Apparently the triple therapy fails quite often these days due to clarithromycin resistance. I am struggling to see how amoxicillin could work for anything these days (except killing vulnerable commensals) so perhaps berberine would be something to try. It could produce awful die-off symptoms, though, judging by comments on blogs so I don't know if it's worth it.

With regard to RS and OI improvement, you might consider switching to something that's not going to feed SIBO. Have you tried any other prebiotics? Recently I've had surprisingly good results for my autonomic symptoms including POTS from beet root extract. You can buy 100 capsules for 6 bucks on iHerb so it seems like a no-brainer to try.

 

[Sasha]

Thanks, @Sidereal - good to know I'm not alone in this experience!

Following @adreno's comment, I'm just reading Norm Robillard on his view that h. pylori doesn't play a major role in SIBO/GERD (the opposite of Chris Kresser's view), and am about to read the Chresser one that adreno referenced. Very confused now over whether I shoud treat this as h. pylori or what. I wish I knew a gastro doc in the UK who was up on everything (including RS).

I haven't dared try another other prebiotics - too nervous to do that on my own (I only took the VSL-3 and calcium carbonate because of reassurances from the dietician and now I'm really regretting that).

I can't find any info on beetroot extract as a prebiotic. Have you added it to PS or have you given up on PS? If so, have you found the beetroot to give you equally good effects?

Anyway, thanks for the sympathy - feeling very scared at the moment (which can't be helping either!).

 

[adreno]

I haven't dared try

too nervous to do that

feeling very scared at the moment

Damn. Calm down, girl

 

[adreno]

Very confused now over whether I shoud treat this as h. pylori or what.

H. Pylori causes ulcers and would likely involve pain. Histamine overload will cause many more symptoms than GERD.

If you have only GERD and your symptoms coincided with your use of calcium carbonate, I find it most likely that you simply neutralized your stomach acid.

 

[Sidereal]

@Sasha, dieticians don't know anything, I would steer clear. It's possible that the alkalising effect of calcium carbonate did you in.

Finding a gastro who is aware of RS / microbiome issues? Good luck with that.

With regard to beetroot, yes the pectin in beta vulgaris is a prebiotic. Vegas recommended it when I was dealing with gout a few months ago. I haven't given up on RS, I just take it less frequently now.

I haven't dared try another other prebiotics - too nervous to do that on my own

Why?

 

[Sasha]

Damn. Calm down, girl

I know! I know!

http://chriskresser.com/headaches-hives-and-heartburn-could-histamine-be-the-cause

Just read that - very interesting. I don't have a ton of those symptoms - I'd hold my hand up to hypotension, nasal congestion, fatigue and reflux - not sure what to make of that.

The only thing I've eaten on the high-histamine list for the past three months (because I've been following a low-tyramine diet, which excludes almost all of that stuff) is fish. I've had to cut out salmon recently because it was a suspect in giving me migraines, and eggs give me eczema, ditto cayenne...

So if I've got a histamine problem (dunno), there's nothing left to cut out of my diet - so the issue would be too many histamine-producing gut bacteria. If that's the case, what should I do? At the end of the article, Kresser recommends working with a qualified practitioner but in the UK, I've got no clue who that would be. So hard to know who to trust: my dietician was qualified but I've got concerns now that what she recommended has had this cumulative effect.

 

[Sasha]

H. Pylori causes ulcers and would likely involve pain. Histamine overload will cause many more symptoms than GERD.

If you have only GERD and your symptoms coincided with your use of calcium carbonate, I find it most likely that you simply neutralized your stomach acid.

We crossed...

I was on the calcium carbonate for three months with no apparent problem. I don't know whether this has been a cumulative thing but it seemed to come out of nowhere, with that very dramatic oesophageal spasm and daily reflux since then.

 

[adreno]

We crossed...

I was on the calcium carbonate for three months with no apparent problem. I don't know whether this has been a cumulative thing but it seemed to come out of nowhere, with that very dramatic oesophageal spasm and daily reflux since then.

Sometimes these things take a while to manifest in severe symptoms, as the body can hold homeostasis for some time. I would try some betaine HCL and see what that does for you.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha, dieticians don't know anything, I would steer clear. It's possible that the alkalising effect of calcium carbonate did you in.

Finding a gastro who is aware of RS / microbiome issues? Good luck with that.

I know, I know...

With regard to beetroot, yes the pectin in beta vulgaris is a prebiotic. Vegas recommended it when I was dealing with gout a few months ago. I haven't given up on RS, I just take it less frequently now.

I've got some apple pectin in the cupboard that I tried briefly and stopped (worried at the time about trying too many things.

My concern about trying other prebiotics is that so many people seem to have problems with some of them and I didn't want to mess up the gains I was making with PS. I feel that my improvement is so fragile - I'm scared (a word that seems to come up a lot for me this week! ) to risk it.

 

[adreno]

My concern about trying other prebiotics is that so many people seem to have problems with some of them and I didn't want to mess up the gains I was making with PS. I feel that my improvement is so fragile - I'm scared (a word that seems to come up a lot for me this week! ) to risk it.

The effects of any prebiotic will most likely be gone a few weeks after you stop taking it.

 

[Sasha]

Sometimes these things take a while to manifest in severe symptoms, as the body can hold homeostasis for some time. I would try some betaine HCL and see what that does for you.

I've got some betaine HCL on order (though am reading all sorts of conflicting 'try it yourself' vs 'only take it under a doctor's supervision' stuff ).

Are you thinking in terms of a one-off test? Or to try it for a few days?

Given that I stopped the calcium carbonate, won't my stomach acid levels be back to normal now?

 

[Sasha]

Just about to be offline half an hour but want to say thanks, @adreno and @Sidereal - this discussion is hugely helpful for me.

 

[adreno]

Are you thinking in terms of a one-off test? Or to try it for a few days?

Given that I stopped the calcium carbonate, won't my stomach acid levels be back to normal now?

I would try it for a few days. Yes, your stomach acid should come back, but sometimes these things take a while to normalize. If you are patient, you can wait it out.

 

[Sidereal]

I've got some apple pectin in the cupboard that I tried briefly and stopped (worried at the time about trying too many things.

My concern about trying other prebiotics is that so many people seem to have problems with some of them and I didn't want to mess up the gains I was making with PS. I feel that my improvement is so fragile - I'm scared (a word that seems to come up a lot for me this week! ) to risk it.

I understand. I do think there's a good chance this will pass on its own.

I agree with Adreno. I'd try betaine HCl. If your reflux is caused by low stomach acid, a common problem, this could help. I've seen a ton of anecdotes online of people fixing their GERD with this supplement after years of getting worse and worse thanks to PPIs.

 

[Sidereal]

Can you get a breath test for H. pylori without having to wait months?

 

[Sasha]

I understand. I do think there's a good chance this will pass on its own.

Man, I hope so. (Not calling you a man, obv!)

I agree with Adreno. I'd try betaine HCl. If your reflux is caused by low stomach acid, a common problem, this could help. I've seen a ton of anecdotes online of people fixing their GERD with this supplement after years of getting worse and worse thanks to PPIs.

Thanks! I've read some of that same stuff, and yet Robillard's article argues against it. Maybe the only way is to suck it and see.

 

[Sasha]

Can you get a breath test for H. pylori without having to wait months?

I don't know - I'd have to look into that.

Just been reading Robillard on how h. pylori seems to be protective against GERD.

Don't know which way is up anymore.

 

[Sidereal]

I don't know - I'd have to look into that.

Just been reading Robillard on how h. pylori seems to be protective against GERD.

Don't know which way is up anymore.

Yeah, the H. pylori story is much much more complicated than we've been led to think. Some people get better from eradication, some get no benefit, some seem to get worse. Triple therapy was certainly useful for my father who seemingly developed a severe ulcer overnight and almost died from blood loss. I think it probably depends on the overall microbiome milieu in the body whether this bacterium behaves like a pathogen or a commensal.

 

[Maia]

Don't know which way is up anymore.

Why don't you people use sesame oil pulling to help healing your GERD, guts and calm H. pylori down?

 

[melamine]

@Sasha - @jepps is very specific about the need to balance the prebiotics, which can be weighted differently depending on the problem. Hopefully she will be able to provide some advice.

Interestingly, I just read a blog last night by a person who had recovered from "CFS" by the use of, in part, probiotics.
(S)he stated that h.pylori tends to be low or absent in those with CFS. When I was scoped about 12 years ago, that was the situation with me even though I had GI symptoms at the time. https://cfsremission.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/probiotics-lack-lactobacillus-acidophilus/

It appears your over-reliance on the single prebiotic led to the h. pylori, as you recognize. Have you researched what kind of pre/probiotics feed h. pylori? It's also possible that the probiotics you're using contain one or more strains that are feeding it and may be more resilient and populous compared to other strains. I think with a little research in this direction you might be able to rebalance things. Just a thought. I hope you find your answer soon.

I have just started using RS/potato starch and other fibers and am in the process of trying to find the best balance myself. I don't want to spoil the good effects I've started getting!

P.S. - just editing to direct you to the Sanum Therapy thread, where more about prebiotics can be found.