• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Staggering Incompetence

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,117
I'm currently starting the process of looking into whether or not I can get on disability. Probably should have gotten on it decades ago. Didn't know what was wrong with me though. Unfortunately, as a child, my parents moralized my condition and even physically abused me for being tired. So I spent decades "trying to be a better person", thinking my tiredness was because I was a bad person. Very, very sad.

I think many of us have experienced that. Even now, I don't know how I can be diagnosed with a 'disorder' that isn't understood, has no definitive biomarkers, is very individual, has no clear prognosis, and has little to no treatment options that work for any group.

It's awful to experience, and adds insult to injury when we realize that pretty much no one will understand unless they are experiencing the same level of the same illness. Mild people who talk about being tired after exercising vs people who worry about making it to the bathroom. Even when I was moderate, I thought severe people weren't 'pushing through' like I was. Of course, pushing through is exactly what led me to become more severe, but by the time you understand, it's too late.
 
Messages
69
I think many of us have experienced that. Even now, I don't know how I can be diagnosed with a 'disorder' that isn't understood, has no definitive biomarkers, is very individual, has no clear prognosis, and has little to no treatment options that work for any group.

It's awful to experience, and adds insult to injury when we realize that pretty much no one will understand unless they are experiencing the same level of the same illness. Mild people who talk about being tired after exercising vs people who worry about making it to the bathroom. Even when I was moderate, I thought severe people weren't 'pushing through' like I was. Of course, pushing through is exactly what led me to become more severe, but by the time you understand, it's too late.

I hear you.

There is some hope in that I have experienced full recovery. This latest relapse is simply due to the loss of the right form of MeB12. And because of this relapse, I now have the theory that CFS and chronic pain may be a result of a lack of B12 in the cerebrospinal fluid. B12 is also critical in neurotransmitter production. When I was well, I was working on a video series about all this. This is chapter 1, chapter 2 is linked and gets specifically into what we deal with:


(BTW, that video is all original graphics, animation, music that I wrote and performed, writing, editing, etc.. That, versus looking at getting on disability now and not even being able to concentrate. That's how big of a difference there is.)

As far as I can tell, there are two major barriers involved:

1. Lack of doctor understanding. Here is a message from my doctor this week:

I spoke with the pharmacist.
I did order the methyl cobalamin 10,000 mg for your use at home
The use of 5 g weekly is far in excess of typical Family Practice regimen and I am not comfortable doing it at that level regardless of how you use it.

If you need to use medications that are far beyond focal guidelines within Family Practice then unfortunately you will have to establish with naturopath, functional medicine provider or other licensed certified provider who has experience and the flexibility in order to use this type of therapy otherwise I will do my best to help accommodate your request so long as there is not an obvious safety issue
What he doesn't know is that I use 4mg every 48 hours! I've actually told I'm; he obviously has a lot on his plate.

2. Lack of access to high purity, high concentration methylcobalamin.

Pure MeB12 is basically a controlled substance, not available to the public except through pharmacies. And pharmacies convert it into liquid which can reduce the potency considerably (as much as 80-90%). My current theory is that this lack of potency, combined with doctors' unwillingness to prescribe high potency in the first place is what may be keeping many people from getting well, particularly those who need to achieve CSF saturation. This is what I'm working to find solution for.

I've been working on the B12 piece for 7 years, and am pretty good at solving puzzles, so there's some likelihood that I'm onto something here. A major barrier is that Oxford Biosciences will not tell me who their supplier was before the change in 2022. If I could speak to that supplier, it would be a great help in understanding what was so special about that product.

My hope is that I can find a solution that will help not only myself but many others. I think it's fair to say that CFS is often a metabolic situation and that this particular B12 solution will not work for everyone since our metabolism is so enormously complex. But I'm interested how many people it can help, and there are multiple other conditions that it may be useful in treating: depression, low libido, dementia, Alzheimer's, chronic pain, MS, aging, etc....

EDIT: On a side note, I've also found research that childhood neglect causes issues with methyl groups and neurotransmitter production (The Great Courses, DNA, Episode 8, Epigenetics). Given that I grew up with severe neglect, I find it very interesting that METHYLcobalamin helps me so much and that I've become laser focused on neurotransmitter production.
 
Last edited:

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,494
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
I have 50% normal MTFHR activity due to one defective gene. I've used both methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin B12 and get no additional benefit from the methyl form. There is research showing that high dose Vit B12 accelerates nerve healing. When I want high dose, I vape it (non-nicotine) which is just as effective as an injection, more convenient and at a much lower cost with no doctors visit or needles.
 
Messages
12
I went ahead and ordered the MeB12 from Arnika yesterday. Figured I need to give it a try and see for myself. Pricing is good ($5/5mg shot) but the shipping is murder ($70). Not sure why it was so high.

Also waiting on some powder from a source here in the US.

Probably two-ish weeks arrival on both. Meanwhile, my life continues to slip away. I'm currently starting the process of looking into whether or not I can get on disability. Probably should have gotten on it decades ago. Didn't know what was wrong with me though. Unfortunately, as a child, my parents moralized my condition and even physically abused me for being tired. So I spent decades "trying to be a better person", thinking my tiredness was because I was a bad person. Very, very sad.

It's been a strange turn of events, to get completely better and then lose access to what made that possible.
Good luck!! Fingers crossed so much that either Arnika or the powder works out!

That’s really expensive shipping, ugh!

I’m so sorry! I hope you’ll have a solution in two week when they arrive and won’t need to go down the whole disability road.
 
Messages
45
Man, I'm so rooting for you to get well!

Since you felt something with the oils, could you try to spread the whole bottle over every inch of available skin?

It's not an elegant solution, nor a cheap one, but maybe it can buy you some time until a better solution is found.
 
Messages
69
I have 50% normal MTFHR activity due to one defective gene. I've used both methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin B12 and get no additional benefit from the methyl form. There is research showing that high dose Vit B12 accelerates nerve healing. When I want high dose, I vape it (non-nicotine) which is just as effective as an injection, more convenient and at a much lower cost with no doctors visit or needles.
I'm open to exploring any solution. I did follow some of your information in another thread and the source website did not exist. If you have a source to share, I'd like to take a look at it.
 
Messages
69
Good luck!! Fingers crossed so much that either Arnika or the powder works out!

That’s really expensive shipping, ugh!

I’m so sorry! I hope you’ll have a solution in two week when they arrive and won’t need to go down the whole disability road.
Thank you! The powder actually arrived today. So I'll be injecting it tonight at bedtime and will see I how I feel in the morning. For some reason it takes injections about 8 hours to kick in for me.
 
Messages
69
Man, I'm so rooting for you to get well!

Since you felt something with the oils, could you try to spread the whole bottle over every inch of available skin?

It's not an elegant solution, nor a cheap one, but maybe it can buy you some time until a better solution is found.
Thank you! As I just replied to catysue, the powder I found and ordered just arrived so I'll be injecting that tonight and will know in the morning about its quality. MeB12 from Arnika is presumably being prepared for shipment in Germany.

Regarding your suggestion with the oils, I can get a strong effect by applying 6 squirts (0.75x6=4.5mg of B12) two or three times a day. That's enough that I usually pass out/fall asleep from the relaxing effect. There are two problems though:
  1. When I wake up I feel good, but it only lasts for about 30-45 minutes. That's after waiting about six hours for it to kick in. (By the way, it's normal to start sleeping really deeply when the body gets enough B12 after a deficient state. When I first started injecting in high dosage, all kinds of healing started happening in the body as neurotransmitter production picked up.) Thats's in contrast to a 4mg IM injection that lasts for about 36 hours continuously with excellent concentration, all day energy, deep sleep, etc...
  2. Because I have to apply so much to get an effect, I can very clearly feel the quality of the methylcobalamin that is being put into the oils. I associate it with food grade MeB12 and it doesn't compare with the original MeB12 that I was injecting that worked so well (pharmaceutical grade). That was very pure and had zero negative side effects or sensations or "slag" in it. I'm not saying the oils are bad, but at the dosage I require, it's not a long term solution for me. I only know that because I've experienced something better.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,117
(BTW, that video is all original graphics, animation, music that I wrote and performed, writing, editing, etc.. That, versus looking at getting on disability now and not even being able to concentrate. That's how big of a difference there is.)

Impressive work.

By the way - your doctor said '5g' in that note? Is that a typo, or did he actually think you were planning to inject 5g? Very different than 5mg (1000x of course) which I think is the dose you are talking about.

Also some other studies on B12 that you may have already seen.

Japan (which loves B12) on ALS
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35532908/

It's interesting that there are several studies that show oral B12 is as effective as IM B12 for raising B12 levels, so I'm wondering if something else is going on beyond just the serum level of B12. No idea, just offhand thoughts.
 
Messages
45
Customs apparently seized and destroyed the B12 oils I ordered. I'm gutted. Still hoping it might be a systems glitch... Meanwhile I ordered the Arnika shots. Hopefully they will be better than the hydroxocobalamin shots we have been using
 
Messages
69
Customs apparently seized and destroyed the B12 oils I ordered. I'm gutted. Still hoping it might be a systems glitch... Meanwhile I ordered the Arnika shots. Hopefully they will be better than the hydroxocobalamin shots we have been using
Sorry to hear that!
 
Messages
69
Nevermind. The oils got delivered a few moments ago… tracking says they were destroyed, then says the clearance process is completed… system glitch? 🤷‍♂️

Greg misspelled my address, but it still got here
Glad to hear it! I'm interested how it goes with them.
 
Messages
45
Glad to hear it! I'm interested how it goes with them.
We tried a squirt, about 5 to 6 hours later she had a severe pain flare. I have no idea if it was related. We will wait until it gets better and try a drop.

Any update on the Arnika injections?
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,497
Location
Great Lakes
We tried a squirt, about 5 to 6 hours later she had a severe pain flare. I have no idea if it was related. We will wait until it gets better and try a drop.
I've heard a lot of people mention co-factors like potassium, magnesium, and phosphorus. I also think sodium is important too. Do you think her pain could have been muscular, like maybe cramping related to a deficiency in one, some or all of those?
 
Messages
45
I've heard a lot of people mention co-factors like potassium, magnesium, and phosphorus. I also think sodium is important too. Do you think her pain could have been muscular, like maybe cramping related to a deficiency in one, some or all of those?
She has complex regional pain syndrome. Her pain is from NMDA and glial cell overactivation.

She is bedridden and requires assistance to use the wheelchair to go to the bathroom. All because of the pain in the feet.

Unfortunately she already takes all that as supplements and sometimes it seems to help, other times it doesn't.

By chance, we found out in February that hydroxocobalamin injections provided a few hours of relief. She has been taking them 3 times a day ever since and it caused a steady improvement.

However, due to a mix of circumstances she lost all her progress recently. So these B12 oils may have come too late, or just at the wrong time for testing.

Still, if they caused the cramps, the response was so completely different than the B12 injections that it makes little sense.

We are now hoping she goes back to the pre-flare baseline.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,497
Location
Great Lakes
She has complex regional pain syndrome. Her pain is from NMDA and glial cell overactivation.

She is bedridden and requires assistance to use the wheelchair to go to the bathroom. All because of the pain in the feet.
Aww...no. I'm sorry. :(
However, due to a mix of circumstances she lost all her progress recently.
That's so discouraging.