@Relentless1k I have been consciously and actively working on this methylation protocol only since this past summer;
@Freddd has been at it for many, many years. The genetic testing at 23andme gave me a concrete, scientific theory to hold on to and the interpreted results don’t run counter to what Freddd has to say, really. But Freddd has gone beyond basic recommendations to mega-solutions for what, let’s face it, are mega-glitches in our lives.
I don’t want to hijack your thread, (she said as she temporarily did just that!). But many of our issues are similar. Folate has caused histamine reactions in me, as well as anxiety and breathlessness and exhaustion worse than it was prior to taking so much folate. I’ve had a rash on my chest for over a year and my face breaks out in small bumps over my nose that seem to disappear briefly when I up my folate. I feel comfortable with the potassium gluconate powder I take 3x/day, roughly 900-1000mg, and add another dose if I feel my heart fluttering.
In the end you, like each of us, will have to do the hard experimentation that may lead you out of this quagmire.
I hope some of my questions can be a guide to you as well.
@Freddd It’s not that I don’t agree with the Refeeding Syndrome. I’ve been following that thread with interest (
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...induced-deficiencies.41605/page-2#post-674866 )
But I am so sensitive to so many things I haven’t been sure I was operating as fully as I could with what I have been giving my body in the way of methyl donors.
As to Supplements: I’ve read many past threads on B12 and Folate and devoured @sheclimber’s terrific “My Understanding of Freddd’s Protocol.” My sensitivities showed themselves early with the
Basic Cofactors:
Zinc, more than a drop (1.1mg) at a time gives me symptoms—I’m up to 16mg/day
Selenium, a drop (33mcg) makes me sleep one night, wide awake the next
Vit C, I tolerate 1,000 w/bioflavs + rosehips, but so far haven’t worked on liposomal which was overstimulating at night.
Even my low lower Bs I wonder about. Seeking Health’s B-Minus complex has high 180mg Niacin which may be problematic. The others are 25mg or lower.
In your post, you’ve made me think about the number of times a day I take folate and MeB12 (currently only twice: morning and afternoon)—and after a terrible reaction last night where I was totally unsettled with a wild mind and tight face muscles, I began to wonder today if my body wasn’t running out of
both MeB12
and Folate.
My introduction to the
Deadlock Quartet was rocky.
MeB12 - The first 1/8 tablet I took last spring, before titrating my way off the Country Life Co-Enzyme B Complex caused atrial fibrillation and a trip to the ER. It resolved within a couple of hours on its own, but I know this is the basis for my reluctance to go too high too fast. I tolerate 3-5,000mcg/day, though if I take it too late in the day, it disturbs my sleep. I know studies have shown it can alter/decrease the release of melatonin and the last thing I’ve wanted is to upset my already fragile sleep.
Methyl Folate- Recently I’ve pushed up to 1,200 mcg/day, but today, inspired by some of your comments –
“You might even try 400mcg 3x per day if that isn't how you are taking it and then increase each dose by 400 mcg each day and in a few days you will know whether it works for you or not.”—I upped to 1,600 in 2 doses. Not as dramatic an increase as you suggest, but it was a first step. My nose didn’t start dripping until about 5:00, and given that it’s been drippy pretty much daily for a year, that says something…! I did have a few twinges of Dupuytrens Contracture, a tangling of the fascia in my hands at 4:00, but then that disappeared. I’ve had an aching hand for days now.
Given my symptoms last night—I’m beginning to think I simply needed both MeB12 for my wild, unquiet mind, and the Folate for my tightening facial muscles and tense body. And perhaps a dose of potassium to boot. But it was 11:00 at night and my husband had had a particularly long day traveling and I just wanted to go to sleep. Unfortunately, I couldn’t even manage to do that. So, I got up, took 100 mg of Niacin and had the flush hit me about an hour later, after I’d given up on it and taken 2.5 mg of valium, my go-to drug of choice. I managed to cobble together about 6 hours of sleep.
AdB12 – I began with ½ Dibencoplex by Anabol Naturals one day back in November with no MeB12 or Folate that day, to see how I reacted to it. It made me so anxious I spit out the last of it. I felt a heavy chested exhaustion, aching thumb (old inflammation/tendonitis), weak, aching back (standard folate deficiency) and dripping nose! In the middle of the night as I lay awake, my face muscles felt as if they were scrunched in a fierce scowl (another folate deficiency symptom, I’m pretty sure).
I tried a three day run of AdB12 a week ago at 1/8 tablet/day in the a.m., didn't have any of the above symptoms, and took my MeB12 and folate with lunch. For two days I had amazing blocks of sleep 4 hours one night and 3 the other, added to my shorter nighttime naps. The third night I was overwrought and used both potassium and niacin to piece together 4 hours of sleep. (Are you beginning to see my pattern here?! My escape from feeling totally out of control?)
Over those three days I missed increasing Folate symptoms: more and more soreness/inflammation/ more breathlessness/increasing loose stool and IBS/ increasing runny nose and sneezing/ increasing depression. Looking back, I was only taking a single dose of either 800mcg or 1,000 mcg of Folate each day. That was certainly part of the problem.
I started a thread on this -
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/adenosyl-b12-driver-of-folate-needs.41685/ where I compiled my thoughts and wondered whether, like B2, AdB12 can also be a driver of Folate needs, because that feels like exactly what I experienced.
Looking over your exhaustive symptoms list, Freddd, Version 2 – 01/09/2014 (if there’s an updated post, I’d love the link), I know that my first fibromyalgia symptoms were ‘lack of muscle recovery after exercise,’ and ‘exercise debilitates, etc’ Thus it seems that AdB12 is very important for me.
So, in relation to both MeB12 and the AdB12, I need to up my Folate. Are they both drivers?
Should I take the MeB12 and AdB12 together in the morning? Both of them lined up along my gum line?
That third time per day--or possibly more--I’m going to have to build up my courage. Bedtime is already fraught. No doubt that's part of the problem...
Another frequent reaction may relate to folate or MeB12, though it’s possible it’s just blood sugar. At dinner time only, I sometimes feel anxious after I start to eat. It passes, sometimes not until after dinner. Sometimes it’s accompanied by pvcs (premature ventricular contractions of the heart, little skipped, or actually extra beats).
I’m hoping it isn’t a reaction to the folates in my vegetables. That isn’t the sort of reaction you have, is it? Or is it possible that even if it were this sort of reaction, what I really need is more MeB12 to handle the folate I’m ingesting?
Finally:
L-carnitine fumarate. I’ve got it, but haven’t tried it yet—I’ve been too engaged with trying to figure out the first three.
Diet: I’ve been gluten free for over 6 years (I do eat gluten free oatmeal occasionally by Bob’s Red Mill), lots of vegetables (so I hope the folic acid there isn’t a problem), lots of meat and poultry, and eggs, and try to keep my carbs relatively low, which is to say around 100. I do have mouth issues/tongue fissures, which react to more or fewer carbs, so I don’t know what I would eat if I had to cut out vegetables. I allow myself a little rice and potatoes at this point to keep on some calories as I stopped nuts (with the exception of sunflower and pumpkin seeds, the first high in zinc, the second in copper!) because of high oxalates when I was so out of wack last winter. I suspect this has improved now, though, with the B6 and MeB12.
This is long and probably tedious, but I fully appreciate your comments of last night which have made me bolder in terms of the amount of folate I’ve taken.
Now we’ll see how I sleep tonight…and if I don't, whether I'm bold enough to try some bedtime MeB12 or Folate...
Thanks.