I need to sleep! Help !!!!!

[Mary]

After falling asleep, did you ever dream you were looking in a mirror and saw a red face looking back at you?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Mary

I didn't know any of this - thank you for being the constant voice of GABA doom!

The crow flies again .....

Along with Lemon Balm (Melissa), others in the same P450 /CYP3A4 metabolizing enzyme string are almost anything you might want to try for sleep. These are powerful herbs, but not everyone reacts badly to them. Just in case, tho, thought I'd list them here. They set me back significantly, but at the time I was already in a downward spiral, so who knows.

Just in case, others that come readily to mind are: Skullcap, Passion Flower, St John's Wort, Valerian, and to a lesser extent, even tart cherry, tho weakly ...... depends on your system and sensitivity: they generally use GABA receptors to produce their effects (and are metabolized via the same pathways that metabolize diazepam, etc) and in doing so, they down regulate those receptors, creating significant negative responses if you're already sensitized to their action. Not everybody is.

If you've ever been on a longish course of anti-anxiety or sleep medications, anything benzo, or even SSRIs, odds are you might have a poor response due to the down-regulation of GABAa and GABAb receptors, along with NMDA issues, and that ingrained sensitivity can take a long time to repair itself.

So just be cautious, and trial these carefully. Low and slow. Watch for anxiety, insomnia, depression, anhedonia, muscle issues as a sort of warning.

There. Done spreading cheer. Apologies.

 

[GreenMachineX]

regarding supplements i tried everything which is mentioned in this thread -with No help.melatonin makes me feel even worse since a few months.even if i take it only every now and then.

am currently on
triazolam(benzo)
mirtazapin(low dose)
atarax
lemon balm
Relora(with Magnolia)
Supplements which made me feel worse(warning for those with tendency to react paradoxicly
ashwaganda
rhodiola
Unisom
melatonin
diphenylhydramide
valerian and hops




supplements which made me fell much worse

I hope your still around...but your using lemon balm and atarax together? No issue with interactions? Do you take it at the same time?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I hope your still around...but your using lemon balm and atarax together? No issue with interactions? Do you take it at the same time?

I agree .... lemon balm (Melissa) and Atarax would both be metabolized in the liver by CYP3A4 and CYP3A5, and it's possible that each may act as either an inducer or inhibitor of the other, or a potentiator.

But if there were no notable reactions then disregard the above ....

 

[keenly]

@Mary

The crow flies again .....

Along with Lemon Balm (Melissa), others in the same P450 /CYP3A4 metabolizing enzyme string are almost anything you might want to try for sleep. These are powerful herbs, but not everyone reacts badly to them. Just in case, tho, thought I'd list them here. They set me back significantly, but at the time I was already in a downward spiral, so who knows.

Just in case, others that come readily to mind are: Skullcap, Passion Flower, St John's Wort, Valerian, and to a lesser extent, even tart cherry, tho weakly ...... depends on your system and sensitivity: they generally use GABA receptors to produce their effects (and are metabolized via the same pathways that metabolize diazepam, etc) and in doing so, they down regulate those receptors, creating significant negative responses if you're already sensitized to their action. Not everybody is.

If you've ever been on a longish course of anti-anxiety or sleep medications, anything benzo, or even SSRIs, odds are you might have a poor response due to the down-regulation of GABAa and GABAb receptors, along with NMDA issues, and that ingrained sensitivity can take a long time to repair itself.

So just be cautious, and trial these carefully. Low and slow. Watch for anxiety, insomnia, depression, anhedonia, muscle issues as a sort of warning.

There. Done spreading cheer. Apologies.

wow you may have explained why I have sudden severe insomnia. I have not taken my 3 brain sleep herbs for the last 4 nights, that includes lemon balm.

 

[Anchoress]

With access to only basic medical care for physical needs... I sleep well every night now. After decades of ineffective prescription meds and herbal meds,, I need effective pain relief at night so take the codeine/paracetamol Tylex I get prescribed, and added Piriton. an OTC antihistamine. Sleep though the night almost every night... Such a blessing

 

[perchance dreamer]

I'll suggest something I wish I had known when my insomnia started. I think anyone struggling with this should go to a good ear/nose/throat doctor to have their nose and sinuses evaluated to rule out a breathing problem. Even if you have sleep disorders that don't seem to be related to breathing, such as restless legs or narcolepsy, if you don't breathe well, you will never sleep well. It's possible to have breathing problems even if you don't seem to have symptoms.

Nothing worked for my sleep until I had nose and sinus problems addressed. Also, I was tested and diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea, despite being thin and not snoring. I now control OSA with an oral device.

I wish I could go back in time and take care of these things first before going down so many expensive, time-consuming rabbit holes that didn't help much anyway since my breathing was screwed up. Of course, I'm not saying everyone with insomnia has a breathing problem. It's just important to rule out.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I'm not saying everyone with insomnia has a breathing problem. It's just important to rule out.

What a thoughty and helpful post !!!!

I'm guessing that those of us with sleep problems, and I'm betting that we're legion, based on what I've read in these threads down the last 3 years or so, probably never thought of that particular avenue of investigation for sleep issues, but now that you've posted about it, it seems so obvious !!!!

Plus, its good to see you @perchance dreamer, even without that input ....

 

[Wayne]

What a thoughty and helpful post !!!!

Hi @YippeeKi YOW !! -- I was thinking the very same thing and was planning to comment on it as I read @perchance dreamer's post, but you beat me to it! Thanks for the insightful post Perchance!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hi @YippeeKi YOW !! -- I was thinking the very same thing and was planning to comment on it a

Great Slightly cog-fogged minds think alike , tho I probably should only speak for myself in that regard .... good to see you !!!!

 

[Judee]

So I am having issues with sleep partly because I'm on thiamine now and that can disrupt my sleep even when I take it in the morning. I'm trying some things to get around that.

Also my sleep inversion is still a problem though I've managed to work my way back to going to bed between 1-3am instead of 4-7am. However, it is a constant struggle not to start inching forward again especially because the time of day I feel best with the ME is after 10:30pm usually.

Some things that help, for me all just small amounts since I'm very sensitive:

-tart cherry mixed with calcium hydroxipatate
-benedryl (I take 1/4-1/2 of a children's chewable tablet) I use this to help me fall asleep or anytime I wake mid-cycle and can't fall back to sleep easily. (For cost sake though I plan on trying the adult version soon but only using tiny fragments of the pill.)
-Swanson's Sleep essentials. It has a lot of everything. I do tend to kinda react to the camomile since it is in the ragweed family and the gaba relaxes some muscles but leaves others to bear the load so can cause odd pain issues. Since it has a lot of the herbal things @YippeeKi YOW !! warns about in the benzo threads, I try not to take it that often.

I did try timed-release melatonin...even took it the way ZeroGravitas talks about in post #35 of this thread: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/high-dose-melatonin.88865/page-2

It still causes some headaches and really didn't seem all that effective for me. I still had to revert back to adding the things listed above while taking it.

The main thing out of those three above are the benedryl. That's the one that most consistently puts me to sleep.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

The main thing out of those three above are the benedryl. That's the one that most consistently puts me to sleep.

I agree, tho I react badly to Benadryl, so I use Unisom, which is like a gift from heaven for me. Like you, a little less than 1/2 a tablet (the dose for some reason is 2 tablets, so that's 1/4 of the rec'd dose) is more than enough.

But I also use low-dose melatonin (high dose melatonin is, forgive me, horse-puckey .... your body at its highest output only produces about 0.25 or 0.50 mgs, can you imagine how a 10 or 15 mg dose screws with your system and pineal gland?), about 0.50 mgs 45 - 60 min's before bedtime, the other half about 20 mins bfore bedtime. If sleep resists me, then I take the 1/4 dose of Unisom, cause I'm just soooooooooo tired of tossing and turning and mantra-ing and measured-breathing minduflness ....

Sleep is essential. Get it any reasonable way you can .....

 

[Judee]

high dose melatonin is, forgive me, horse-puckey

I should have clarified that the part I liked in ZeroGravitas' post is where he talked about fixing a non-24 hour sleep cycle which I kinda wonder if I have.

He said, "Also, via that thread, I was linked to an article that put me onto 2013 information from an AI researcher/author I follow, who, unknown to me, had non-24-hour too (though merely 24.5h, vs my 25.6h cycle, currently). He apparently fixed it with low dose (0.2mg) 5-7 hours before bed! Way earlier than I think I've ever tried: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1631782266429898753

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I should have clarified that the part I liked in ZeroGravitas' post is where he talked about fixing a non-24 hour sleep cycle which I kinda wonder if I have.

Oh sweetie, that wasnt aimed at you .... it was a general comment for anyone who bumped into one or more of several posts scattered around, about the miracle of waaaaay over the top doses of melatonin .....

The melatonin really helps. Try taking 0.25 or 0.50 mgs about 4, then 2, then another 1 hr befre bedtime, and refne it fro there. It helps.

 

[GreenEdge]

With access to only basic medical care for physical needs... I sleep well every night now. After decades of ineffective prescription meds and herbal meds,, I need effective pain relief at night so take the codeine/paracetamol Tylex I get prescribed, and added Piriton. an OTC antihistamine. Sleep though the night almost every night... Such a blessing

I too found that pain relief was more effective than prescription sleep medicines, and also OTC antihistamine.
I was prescribed codeine and found it very effective. But when I told those close to me what I'd found worked, they were very negative and for good reason: Codeine/paracetamol is implicated in unintentional mortality.

My doctor then put me onto Lyrica (pregabalin). I found Lyrica worked quite well when combined with a small amount of Mirtazapine and a very small amount of Baclofen. The 3 worked together synergistic-ally, however over many years, the amount of Lyrica I required increased to the point where I was often exceeding the max recommended dose of 300 mg/day. Pregabalin is also implicated in unintentional mortality.

I saw this increasing dependence on Lyrica (pregabalin) as my body counteracting its effect, so it's actually making the problem worse. Then over a long period I weaned myself off both Lyrica and Mirtazapine - almost. My sleep got worse, but I endured because I recognized these drugs don't work long term. I managed to get them both down to minimum dose, but I found them near impossible to cease completely.

Then late in 2021, averaging only 2 hrs sleep per night, I switched to cannabis oil and found it worked better than those 3 medicines combined. Slowly my sleep is improving and is now at 4-6 hrs per night.

Over time the amount of cannabis oil required increases. To counter that and keep costs down, I cease taking it for 4-5 days every month or two.

 

[Anchoress]

Thank you for this information ... and I am very glad you found the right way for you. Each is different with a different approach...

. All meds have dangers and side effects. But so does chronic lack of sleep... and intractable pain that inevitably endangers and limits mobility . We each have to weigh one against the other.

The Tylex is prescribed, for over 20 years now and so was the piriton until HSE ( I am in Ireland) realised it was similar to another anti histamine... . I have to stay with meds I can get free if I can,, or can get at all....

All meds carry risks as they are alien substances... Just have to know and make a choice.

And with me both these meds are working long term consistently over many years. I have not had to increase, NB These are night time use only. Maybe that helps ? I could not use them in the day as they make me too sleepy to function. I keep gently mobile. But the pain at night ...

Also I am an octagenarian pensioner . .. It is prescription only in Ireland now. And at my age I am not concerned re dependency, as staying mobile is vital. I am rarely seen by my GP as she knows my situation and that I am sensible and resourceful, ( small offshore island)

They work for me... I get decent sleep reliably. Bliss!

Before I came to Ireland... I was misdiagnosed as being mentally ill for 30 years and on all kinds of tranx etc, Took me a full year with no medical help to get off benzos... If i ever needed to drop Tylex I would manage, but am happy with my current routine.

I was once offered cannabis at a street market... but the cost alone and I could not access it out here... I admit to being sorely tempted to try it. Where I lived before, again an island, in Orkney, a man with ME got caught and sent to jail. He was simply trying to deal with the illness. A few years later a woman there with MS did the same and was let off completely in court. Far too risky when I can get the help I need legally and free! ( we can get low dose pain relief with codeine OTC here but it is being cut now) Maybe I can grow something.. With my luck I would get caught..

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I saw this increasing dependence on Lyrica (pregabalin) as my body counteracting its effect,

It sounds more like classic tolerance withdrawal.

Drs like to put out a lot of happy talk about how relatively harmless Lyrica and gabapentin are, and I like to think that this is because of ignorance, not greed. But Pregabalin was developed as an anti-epileptic, and even tho technically it has no effect on GABAa or GABAb receptors, it DOES fiddle with your neurotransmiters in it's own inimitable way, largely by blocking or reducing the release of glutamate.

So it seems logical to me that in blocking the release of the primary excitatory neurotransmitter, it inevitably down-regulates your GABA receptors and activity, since that's what's released in order to balance glutamate's effect. Less glutamate, less need for GABA.

And when your GABA is knocked down, you hvae no defense against excess glutamate, a response that would account for the tolerance withdrawl effect, as you'd need more and more Lyrica to maintain control over glutamate, so every so often (and usually oftener and oftener as things progress), you have to boost your dose to accommodate your brain's silent screaming need for help.

I think it's TERRIFIC that you've managed to titrate your dose down to a minimal dose!!! Its not easy to do, and you rarely get any meaningful help from your prescribing Dr.

I managed to get them both down to minimum dose, but I found them near impossible to cease completely.

At some point, you may have to bite the bullet, keep slowly tapering your doses down, and then swallow hard, and when you're down to a teeny tiny fragment of your original dose (not the dose you started titrating off of, which would undoubtably have been higher), stop completely. This is very very hard to do, and for good reason, so try to find a specialist to discuss this with once you get to a place where it seems like a possibility.

One again, kudos on getting this far !!!! It's a murderously hard battle, and Drs either really don't know the mechanism of action of what they prescribe, or just don't want to know. Once the meds have done their predictable damage, getting off them requires a lot of time and patience, two things that Drs dont seem to have an abundance of.

 

[Wayne]

Once the meds have done their predictable damage, getting off them requires a lot of time and patience, two things that Drs dont seem to have an abundance of.

Hi @YippeeKi YOW !! -- Great post! Your last comment reminds me of something I learned many years ago regarding the health issues we face. In short, we're on our own. Yes, we can get help from various health care practitioners who are humble and who truly have our welfare at heart, but so much of our time is spent navigating a labyrinth of doctors and health care institutions (often run by hedge funds these days) that really don't care nearly as much about us as they do their bottom line.

We also deal with myriad health care "specialists" with their conventional ways of doing things, both of which can do great harm if we don't keep ourselves informed. We are truly on our own in a lot of ways, but this forum makes that reality a little less harrowing. Thank goodness for the many folks here who have a great deal of understanding of each other and what each of us go through on a daily basis. And who generously share the knowledge and experience they've gained over the many years of dealing with difficult health issues.

 

[Anchoress]

Hi @YippeeKi YOW !! -- Great post! Your last comment reminds me of something I learned many years ago regarding the health issues we face. In short, we're on our own. Yes, we can get help from various health care practitioners who are humble and who truly have our welfare at heart, but so much of our time is spent navigating a labyrinth of doctors and health care institutions (often run by hedge funds these days) that really don't care nearly as much about us as they do their bottom line.

We also deal with myriad health care "specialists" with their conventional ways of doing things, both of which can do great harm if we don't keep ourselves informed. We are truly on our own in a lot of ways, but this forum makes that reality a little less harrowing. Thank goodness for the many folks here who have a great deal of understanding of each other and what each of us go through on a daily basis. And who generously share the knowledge and experience they've gained over the many years of dealing with difficult health issues.

There are no health care personnel in my life as such so this forum is ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

We are truly on our own in a lot of ways, but this forum makes that reality a little less harrowing.

Church !!!!

Its hard to remember when I last trusted Drs blindly. Or for some of them, at all ... I know there are good ones, but it's like unicorns or Sasquatch . You hear about them, but it's hard to believe when you have no first hand knowledge

hank goodness for the many folks here who have a great deal of understanding of each other and what each of us go through on a daily basis. And who generously share the knowledge and experience they've gained over the many years of dealing with difficult health issues.

Totally !!! I honestly believe that this site saved my life, and I get very ruffly when I see people dropping in it to raid the library as it were, giving nothing back, or sell things or protocols or disciplines or magic gizmos (yes, they occasionally slip thru the mods) that, you know, reset your electrical, like, vibe, and know when you've got a headache and can silently adjust your aura til it goes away.... caveat emptor, and read the fine print, which usually has a version of YMMV, right under 'Made In China' .....

There's a distinctly different feel between someone who's really benefited from something and wants to share that knowledge or experience (that's how I learned about the potential benefits from a TENS), knowing that this isn't a one-size-fits-all kinda illness, and someone who carefully, calculatingly, cooly, sizes up the audience and starts pitching.

This site is special and I desperately want it to stay that way. But like the poet said, " ..... Nothing gold can stay ....".
On the other hand, he didn't know all y'all, now, did he?