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Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
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@MeSci
what would you consider a short course of grapefruit seed extract? and how much a day? I have 100mg tablets.
Given my intolerances I could try half a tablet.............
me too - let me know when you've found one............
@MeSci
I like the term 'indwelling device' it makes me laugh..........
Hi Hip,
How much information do you need ... I have uploaded some information from the Melbourne University.
There are 2 methods of causing leaky gut by gram positive bacteria. The first being gut fermentation, gram positive bacteria ferment sugars/starches etc. and produce lactic acid and hydrogen sulphide. Hydrogen Sulphide (a poison) causes epithelial cells to break their bonds, resulting in leaky gut, acidosis causes brain fog etc. The second method (and this is the killer) once you have fixed acidosis from the fermenting gut they change their method of metabolism, to oxidative and produce hydrogen peroxide which causes oxidative stress on the colon walls which breaks down DNA at the cellular level, and completely lysis the cells .... you still have leaky gut, but what is worse, this process causes colonic polyps which leads to cancer ........
This is some cheery news, especially since I just ordered the supplement. Not that I take all your pronouncements (as some of them come across) written in stone. Your persistent (undetectable thread and now popping up on this one) alluding to me/cfs as a fatal disease has begun to grate on me as well. I've live with it for thirty years, now, and some here for even longer. Try and place yourself in the shoes of a twenty year old, newly diagnosed, coming here and being greeted with some of your posts. Perhaps it should be colonic polyps may lead to cancer, I'm sure autopsies exist of cardiac victims full of polyps and yet without a trace of cancer.
My point, obscure as it may appear, is that something is going to kill us all. Some of us, maybe even many of us, will outlive our healthy friends. The will to live and hope for a better future has on occasion trumped even worse plights than this illness.
Cheers to you, Mate
Hi maryb,So if as they say in @Elph68 link
'If indicated, erythromycin may assist in the suppression of the faecal Streptococcus spp.
Ampicillin/amoxycillin may be a suitable alternative if patient is reported to have adverse reactions to the
macrolids'
what happens after we take these a/biotics - how do we stop the bacteria from getting hold again?.
Hi Hip,
How much information do you need ... I have uploaded some information from the Melbourne University.
There are 2 methods of causing leaky gut by gram positive bacteria. The first being gut fermentation, gram positive bacteria ferment sugars/starches etc. and produce lactic acid and hydrogen sulphide. Hydrogen Sulphide (a poison) causes epithelial cells to break their bonds, resulting in leaky gut, acidosis causes brain fog etc. The second method (and this is the killer) once you have fixed acidosis from the fermenting gut they change their method of metabolism, to oxidative and produce hydrogen peroxide which causes oxidative stress on the colon walls which breaks down DNA at the cellular level, and completely lysis the cells .... you still have leaky gut, but what is worse, this process causes colonic polyps which leads to cancer.
That is only one theory. There are others, and this paper provides a good (if technical) explanation of an apparently-popular one. It uses the autoimmune examples of coeliac disease and diabetes, but I see no reason why it should not apply to other autoimmune diseases. It says:
Thus they, along with others such as Maes, believe that just fixing leaky gut may be enough to turn off autoimmune activity. It could take months or years, depending on a range of factors.
Hi Hip,Hi Elph68
Please can you provide some references for the above statements that hydrogen sulphide or hydrogen peroxide from bacteria can cause leaky gut.
I was unable to find any studies or literature indicating that hydrogen sulphide or hydrogen peroxide from bacteria can increase intestinal permeability.
Though I did find this study which found that hydrogen peroxide increase the permeability of the blood-brain barrier. Note however that some probiotic bacteria such as Lactobacillus produce hydrogen peroxide, and probiotics are not known to cause leaky gut (in fact, rather the opposite).
I also could not find any literature on gut acidosis leading to more hydrogen peroxide production from bacteria. Could you provide a reference for this please.
I did however find this study that mentions hydrogen peroxide from Enterococcus faecalis might (but this is not proven) lead to colonic polyps; but I found no details of any general link between hydrogen peroxide from bacteria and colonic polyps or colon cancer.
Hip, I'm not as versed as many of you guys in these medical terms. I have been told in the past about the relationship of cytokines and CFS symptoms, but most of it escapes my understanding.Note that several the cytokines Del-Immune V stimulates (the ones I put in bold) are the Th1 cytokines, which of course are desirable for ME/CFS, as ME/CFS patients need to boost their Th1 cytokines in order to get better.
Hi Knackers323: are you still taking the supplement? Have you noticed any changes, any improvement or worsening of symptoms and general condition?This morning I have woken up still feeling better than I normally would. I have had similar, yet nowhere near as strong a reaction with probiotics before but it did not last.
@Elph68
so how do you get them out of the lymph system? Can you explain it briefly, not really up to reading many papers.
Ok... Day three taking rhamnosus lysate capsules, and I actually feel worse. Not good at all.
Things that have markedly worsened today:
- Brain fog (as bad as it gets)
- Fatigue and shortness of breath
- Headaches and visual noise (light sensitivity, floaters)
- Sleep (slept quite poorly last night, worse than the night before; feeling wrecked today)
- Stomach cramps, IBS symptoms
I would appreciate it if anyone could let me know what this means.
Again, I keep my reservations that maybe the exposure to the frigid cold over the last few days may have messed me up too, and may be developing a major cold. Not sure, but can't discard it.
For the record, I did experience an uptick in alertness and thinking on the first day taking this supplement (as listed in this post). Then half way through the second day things started to go downhill.
Hip, I'm not as versed as many of you guys in these medical terms. I have been told in the past about the relationship of cytokines and CFS symptoms, but most of it escapes my understanding.
If rhamnosus lysate estimulates Th1 cytokines, but I feel worse taking it, what does it mean? What should I look into? What tests should I ask my doctor to take in regards to my gut flora?
Hi Knackers323: are you still taking the supplement? Have you noticed any changes, any improvement or worsening of symptoms and general condition?
PS: brain-fog so bad today that it took me many passes to actually type and edit this note.
As I said, devils advocate ... wouldn't it be better to remove all stimulation (kill the infection) and then repair the immune system??
You need a good working immune system to eliminate an infection.
You can not remove all stimuly and if you could you would dy.
Hi Hip,@Elph68
I don't see any evidence in those studies you cited that hydrogen sulphide or hydrogen peroxide from bacteria can cause leaky gut.
xylitol is one product .... it is poisonous to strep and breaks down biofilms .... won't completely rid them though ....
Tea tree oil ..... not sure if you should drink it though ....
Antibiotics ..... really strong ones .... moxifloxican, azithromycin, vancomycin
If you have had this a long time .... you are going to need IV abx to cure it ..... Gentamycin is probably the trick for getting the bugs out of the lymphatic system ....
Cheers.