Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Dec 24, 2013.
I don´t have a clue! I am sorry!
Culturelle has dairy, that's all.
knackers323, so what did you take?
Allergy Research Group, Russian Choice Immune
Nutricology, Russian Choice Immune?
Or it is the same?
Hot its going?
I took the allergy research group one.
Well, we have me/cfs, what may harm us is relative to that overarching state.
Hi @Hip I kept thinking/hoping you might address this post. I was quite inclined to trial Del-Immune V until I read Elph68's thoughts on gram positive bacteria.
Am I missing something, you are, aren't you, Elph68, saying this supplement would be counter productive, right?
So what will kill gram positive bacteria - herbal??
I am not aware of any studies showing a link between Gram positive bacteria and leaky gut.
Ok, having nothing to lose, I decided to try this supplement.
Started yesterday. Took a total to 5 capsules through the day. By the end of the day I felt some sort of uptick in attention, like the brain fog had lifted a little bit. It felt promising.
Woke up this morning after a pretty bad night of sleep (as usual). I noticed the weird visual effects (light sensitivity, "floaters") a bit stronger than usual. Nevertheless, that slight uptick in focus and brain clarity continued. Went to work venturing these brutal winter conditions. Had two capsules with breakfast, two with lunch. I had a very productive morning, despite dealing with quite a stressful day. I started to feel maybe there's something to this!
But then... half way through the afternoon I started to feel like I was crashing. Went home, and felt increasingly off. This evening I feel fairly fatigued, with very thick brain fog, a headache, feverish feeling, odd muscle soreness, and cervical pain.
Not sure if these things are related to the supplement, or maybe it's the brutal winter temperatures getting to me. I may be getting a major cold, so I don't want to make any judgements yet. I will continue taking this for a few days, to see if I can draw any correlations. If I feel that the crashing feeling persists, I will stop it.
By the way, over the years I have tried just about every supplement suggested to reduce that awful brain fog. Nothing has helped or made a significant difference to this day. Brain fog, memory impairments and mental fatigue remain as the most acute and relentless of my ME/CFS symptoms.
This paper may not represent strong evidence, and it talks about sub-groups, but does posit links between ME/CFS, leaky gut and some gram-positive bacteria.
Well thanks so much for that link - a recent MAPS test with Genova showed I had strep and e-coli. Medical history of boils and sore throats during my life pointed to strep infection.
I've been advised to start Paradex??? can't remember - been too ill to get on to it. But as the discussion says alkalising acids would help so that's why people taking bicarb etc. between meals feel better. I just tried a a/biotic for my recent fluey sore throat thing - it crashed me - too many toxins. so that's not an option for me.
Anyone else have a herbal remedy for gram positive bacteria - think I've asked already?
Seems both Doctors Chia and Merleir are in the right place. (Merleir also co-wrote this paper)
Here's the discussion for those not well enough to skim the paper.
'Indigenous bowel microflora can have both positive and
negative impacts on health. The balance of this ecosystem is
dynamic and alteration of intestinal bacteria may alter the
nutritional benefits to the host. Results in this study elucidate
a direct relationship between CFS patients with cognitive
dysfunction and marked alteration of the bowel microbial
flora where the dominance of the organism E. coli was
replaced by the Gram positive homofermentative lactic acid
bacteria, Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. This
relationship demonstrates the need for measuring D- and Llactic
acid accumulation in biofluids of CFS patients
compared to healthy individuals to confirm whether D-lactic
acid may be involved in the pathogenesis of CFS.
The cause for the increased colonization of faecal
enterococcus and streptococcus in patients with CFS remains
unclear. A recent report of persistent enterovirus infection in
the intestinal tract of CFS patients suggests the possibility of
a chronic disseminated enteroviral infection disrupting the
local immunity (38). Microbial translocation is also a cause
of systemic immune activation in HIV infected individuals
(39). Based on the findings described in this study, existing
therapeutic tools such as short courses of an appropriate
antibiotic, alkalinizing agents, a low carbohydrate diet and
the restriction of glucose intake could become part of the
therapy of CFS patients who suffer from D-lactic acidosis
How much information do you need ... I have uploaded some information from the Melbourne University.
There are 2 methods of causing leaky gut by gram positive bacteria. The first being gut fermentation, gram positive bacteria ferment sugars/starches etc. and produce lactic acid and hydrogen sulphide. Hydrogen Sulphide (a poison) causes epithelial cells to break their bonds, resulting in leaky gut, acidosis causes brain fog etc. The second method (and this is the killer) once you have fixed acidosis from the fermenting gut they change their method of metabolism, to oxidative and produce hydrogen peroxide which causes oxidative stress on the colon walls which breaks down DNA at the cellular level, and completely lysis the cells .... you still have leaky gut, but what is worse, this process causes colonic polyps which leads to cancer ........
You may like to review the undetectable infection thread.
The only problem with this theory .... it doesn't explain the auto-immune issues fully .... Once the strep have access to the underlying cells (through the leaky gut), they have access to the lymphatic system where they take up residence and start killing the immune system from within ......
That is why the protocol that you have presented will generally only return a 75% recovery at best. (That is their data)...... But they are heading in the right direction .....
So if as they say in @Elph68 link
'If indicated, erythromycin may assist in the suppression of the faecal Streptococcus spp.
Ampicillin/amoxycillin may be a suitable alternative if patient is reported to have adverse reactions to the
what happens after we take these a/biotics - how do we stop the bacteria from getting hold again?.
75% sounds FANTASTIC to me
Eliminate the pathogen that causes the dysbiosis. I know easier said than done.
NB theories vary as to whether gram-negative or gram-positive bacteria are the main culprits. This paper by Maes and Leunis posits gram-positive causation and purports to show dramatic benefits from a leaky-gut diet.
EDIT - I meant gram-negative!
I couldn't find any info on natural gram-specific antibiotics so I use short courses of grapefruit seed extract, purported to be active against both gram-negative and positive bacteria, plus a leaky-gut diet and supplements, my theory being that a general bacterial reduction plus the right diet will enable the gut to find a healthier floral balance.
That is only one theory. There are others, and this paper provides a good (if technical) explanation of an apparently-popular one. It uses the autoimmune examples of coeliac disease and diabetes, but I see no reason why it should not apply to other autoimmune diseases. It says:
Thus they, along with others such as Maes, believe that just fixing leaky gut may be enough to turn off autoimmune activity. It could take months or years, depending on a range of factors.
You can also try a Google Site Search
Separate names with a comma.