1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Huge improvement in two hours

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. MARGARITA COLOMBO

    MARGARITA COLOMBO TAOWAY

    Messages:
    25
    Likes:
    9
    I don´t have a clue! I am sorry!
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Messages:
    479
    Likes:
    187
    Pennsylvania
    Culturelle has dairy, that's all.
     
  3. morinos

    morinos

    Messages:
    16
    Likes:
    4
    knackers323, so what did you take?
    Allergy Research Group, Russian Choice Immune
    or
    Nutricology, Russian Choice Immune?

    Or it is the same?

    Hot its going?
     
  4. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    864
    Likes:
    174
    I took the allergy research group one.
     
  5. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

    Messages:
    500
    Likes:
    316
    southeast US

    Hi @cosmo

    Well, we have me/cfs, what may harm us is relative to that overarching state.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  6. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

    Messages:
    500
    Likes:
    316
    southeast US


    Hi @Hip I kept thinking/hoping you might address this post. I was quite inclined to trial Del-Immune V until I read Elph68's thoughts on gram positive bacteria.

    Am I missing something, you are, aren't you, Elph68, saying this supplement would be counter productive, right?
     
  7. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes:
    2,054
    UK
    So what will kill gram positive bacteria - herbal??
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,228
    Likes:
    3,108
    I am not aware of any studies showing a link between Gram positive bacteria and leaky gut.
     
  9. Antares in NYC

    Antares in NYC Senior Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes:
    226
    USA
    Ok, having nothing to lose, I decided to try this supplement.
    Started yesterday. Took a total to 5 capsules through the day. By the end of the day I felt some sort of uptick in attention, like the brain fog had lifted a little bit. It felt promising.

    Woke up this morning after a pretty bad night of sleep (as usual). I noticed the weird visual effects (light sensitivity, "floaters") a bit stronger than usual. Nevertheless, that slight uptick in focus and brain clarity continued. Went to work venturing these brutal winter conditions. Had two capsules with breakfast, two with lunch. I had a very productive morning, despite dealing with quite a stressful day. I started to feel maybe there's something to this!

    But then... half way through the afternoon I started to feel like I was crashing. Went home, and felt increasingly off. This evening I feel fairly fatigued, with very thick brain fog, a headache, feverish feeling, odd muscle soreness, and cervical pain.

    Not sure if these things are related to the supplement, or maybe it's the brutal winter temperatures getting to me. I may be getting a major cold, so I don't want to make any judgements yet. I will continue taking this for a few days, to see if I can draw any correlations. If I feel that the crashing feeling persists, I will stop it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  10. Antares in NYC

    Antares in NYC Senior Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes:
    226
    USA
    By the way, over the years I have tried just about every supplement suggested to reduce that awful brain fog. Nothing has helped or made a significant difference to this day. Brain fog, memory impairments and mental fatigue remain as the most acute and relentless of my ME/CFS symptoms.
     
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes:
    4,569
    Cornwall, UK
    This paper may not represent strong evidence, and it talks about sub-groups, but does posit links between ME/CFS, leaky gut and some gram-positive bacteria.
     
  12. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes:
    2,054
    UK
    @MeSci
    Well thanks so much for that link - a recent MAPS test with Genova showed I had strep and e-coli. Medical history of boils and sore throats during my life pointed to strep infection.
    I've been advised to start Paradex??? can't remember - been too ill to get on to it. But as the discussion says alkalising acids would help so that's why people taking bicarb etc. between meals feel better. I just tried a a/biotic for my recent fluey sore throat thing - it crashed me - too many toxins. so that's not an option for me.
    Anyone else have a herbal remedy for gram positive bacteria - think I've asked already?
    Seems both Doctors Chia and Merleir are in the right place. (Merleir also co-wrote this paper)

    Here's the discussion for those not well enough to skim the paper.

    'Indigenous bowel microflora can have both positive and

    negative impacts on health. The balance of this ecosystem is

    dynamic and alteration of intestinal bacteria may alter the

    nutritional benefits to the host. Results in this study elucidate

    a direct relationship between CFS patients with cognitive

    dysfunction and marked alteration of the bowel microbial

    flora where the dominance of the organism E. coli was
    replaced by the Gram positive homofermentative lactic acid

    bacteria, Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. This
    relationship demonstrates the need for measuring D- and Llactic

    acid accumulation in biofluids of CFS patients

    compared to healthy individuals to confirm whether D-lactic

    acid may be involved in the pathogenesis of CFS.

    The cause for the increased colonization of faecal

    enterococcus and streptococcus in patients with CFS remains

    unclear. A recent report of persistent enterovirus infection in

    the intestinal tract of CFS patients suggests the possibility of

    a chronic disseminated enteroviral infection disrupting the

    local immunity (38). Microbial translocation is also a cause

    of systemic immune activation in HIV infected individuals

    (39). Based on the findings described in this study, existing

    therapeutic tools such as short courses of an appropriate

    antibiotic, alkalinizing agents, a low carbohydrate diet and

    the restriction of glucose intake could become part of the

    therapy of CFS patients who suffer from D-lactic acidosis
     
  13. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Likes:
    176
    Hi Hip,

    How much information do you need ... I have uploaded some information from the Melbourne University.

    There are 2 methods of causing leaky gut by gram positive bacteria. The first being gut fermentation, gram positive bacteria ferment sugars/starches etc. and produce lactic acid and hydrogen sulphide. Hydrogen Sulphide (a poison) causes epithelial cells to break their bonds, resulting in leaky gut, acidosis causes brain fog etc. The second method (and this is the killer) once you have fixed acidosis from the fermenting gut they change their method of metabolism, to oxidative and produce hydrogen peroxide which causes oxidative stress on the colon walls which breaks down DNA at the cellular level, and completely lysis the cells .... you still have leaky gut, but what is worse, this process causes colonic polyps which leads to cancer ........

    You may like to review the undetectable infection thread.

    Cheers.
     

    Attached Files:

    WoolPippi likes this.
  14. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Likes:
    176
    Hi Maryb,

    The only problem with this theory .... it doesn't explain the auto-immune issues fully .... Once the strep have access to the underlying cells (through the leaky gut), they have access to the lymphatic system where they take up residence and start killing the immune system from within ......

    That is why the protocol that you have presented will generally only return a 75% recovery at best. (That is their data)...... But they are heading in the right direction .....

    Cheers.
     
  15. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes:
    2,054
    UK
    So if as they say in @Elph68 link

    'If indicated, erythromycin may assist in the suppression of the faecal Streptococcus spp.
    Ampicillin/amoxycillin may be a suitable alternative if patient is reported to have adverse reactions to the
    macrolids'

    what happens after we take these a/biotics - how do we stop the bacteria from getting hold again?.
     
    Lou likes this.
  16. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes:
    2,054
    UK
    @Elph68
    75% sounds FANTASTIC to me:D
     
  17. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,142
    Likes:
    578
    Eliminate the pathogen that causes the dysbiosis. I know easier said than done.
     
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes:
    4,569
    Cornwall, UK
    NB theories vary as to whether gram-negative or gram-positive bacteria are the main culprits. This paper by Maes and Leunis posits gram-positive causation and purports to show dramatic benefits from a leaky-gut diet.

    EDIT - I meant gram-negative! :oops:

    I couldn't find any info on natural gram-specific antibiotics so I use short courses of grapefruit seed extract, purported to be active against both gram-negative and positive bacteria, plus a leaky-gut diet and supplements, my theory being that a general bacterial reduction plus the right diet will enable the gut to find a healthier floral balance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  19. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    2,919
    Likes:
    2,054
    UK
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes:
    4,569
    Cornwall, UK
    That is only one theory. There are others, and this paper provides a good (if technical) explanation of an apparently-popular one. It uses the autoimmune examples of coeliac disease and diabetes, but I see no reason why it should not apply to other autoimmune diseases. It says:

    Thus they, along with others such as Maes, believe that just fixing leaky gut may be enough to turn off autoimmune activity. It could take months or years, depending on a range of factors.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page