Building a supplement regime for early onset cfs

[Ronagrenade2020]

Hi guys,

I am trying to build a supplement plan to help me with my symptoms, nely fatugue and brain fog.

So far I am using
Vit c 2000mg day
Glutathione 500mg day
Vit D 3000iu day
B6 50mg
P5P 50mg
B12 methylcobalamin 1/2 sublingual nugget a day
Pantothenic acid 550mg day

I am thinking of adding mitochondrial support of:
Coq10 - 200mg
Selenium-200mg
D ribose
Creatine 5 grams day
ALA
Acetyl L Carnatine

Basically i am resting in bed all day and still get tired and worsening brain fog from screen time, I need something to increase my mental capacity so that I can comfortably rest and incorporate a balance to screen time but still accrue energy to recover.

Could you help design the ideal stack to make sure all energy bases are covered please?

At this stage Im not looking into anything stronger than off the shelf stuff but open to hearing what folks rate.

 

[pogoman]

The basic mito cocktail consists of B2 riboflavin, coq10 and l-carnitine, along with supplements tailored to the person.
If your symptoms are sulfur related I would recommend trying molybdenum to see if it helps.
Some supplements and B vitamins are sulfur based and because I am sulfur sensitive/allergic I take molybdenum which helps with sulfur caused fatigue and brain fog.

I also recommend the antioxidant astaxanthin and a good collagen supplement for amino acids and peptides.
Some people have done well on branched chain amino acids aka BCAAs.

 

[Hip]

You could look into B12 transdermal oils (or B12 injections, but oils are much easier to administer). These can help with brain fog.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Well, here's my 2 cents:

Vit D 3000iu day
B6 50mg
P5P 50mg

You only need vitamin D if you're low in it. Check your laboratory results before deciding to supplement with it.

P5P is the active form of vitamin B6, What you don't want is the synthetic pyridoxine, which counteracts the active form of B6.

B12 methylcobalamin 1/2 sublingual nugget a day

Taking B12 without a basic dose of folate can cause problems. The two vitamins go together.

Selenium-200mg

This is not really a mitochondrial supplement, but it is definitely helpful. I personally take selenium in the form of methyl-selenocysteine. Here's one option:
https://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/item01879/se-methyl-l-selenocysteine

D ribose

Again, this is not really a mitochondrial supplement, but it is indeed helpful with energy levels. It works by recycling nucleic acids that had been degraded, including ATP, a nucleic acid used for energy. Start low and slowly increase your dose. At higher doses it might interfere with sleep.

Creatine 5 grams day

Again, start low and slowly increase your dose. Creatine can improve the speed of digestion and improve muscle strength. But it may aggravate digestive problems, so go slow if you have digestive issues.

Hope this helps.

 

[tttttttt]

I tried some ALA a few weeks ago and it gave me intense fatigue. I had tried it 2 years ago with no fatigue. I'm also new to the CFS stuff and ALA seems to be in lots of mitochondrial supplements, but I'd say be careful with it. I've been reading here that fatigue from ALA could be due to mercury redistribution.

Also +1 to going slow, and adding 1 thing at a time for a week or so before trying another.

 

[Wishful]

Also +1 to going slow, and adding 1 thing at a time for a week or so before trying another.

Add another +1. Some of those supplements may cause worsening of your symptoms, and some will probably do nothing for you, so I recommend testing them individually first (except B12+B9 or any other necessary pairing). There is no "this set of supplements will boost energy for most PWME"; we're all different. Most of your list did nothing for me, and some caused problems.

 

[Ronagrenade2020]

Add another +1. Some of those supplements may cause worsening of your symptoms, and some will probably do nothing for you, so I recommend testing them individually first (except B12+B9 or any other necessary pairing). There is no "this set of supplements will boost energy for most PWME"; we're all different. Most of your list did nothing for me, and some caused problems.

How can supplements that are good for the very thing most are lacking make you worse?

If mitochondrial function is low surely boosting would help? If body struggling with ATP surely ATP boosters would help?

Do I need to push for more pharmaceutical intervention?

I was hoping that by end of year 1 I would be feeling better and at least able to do normal stuff, then if still not right I will invest in the stronger substances..

One thing is for sure I can't stay in bed all day forever, so I need a solution that gives me some form of life.. Not expecting to run marathons or push big weights anytime soon but I'd like to be able to move freely and go back to work.

 

[pamojja]

How can supplements that are good for the very thing most are lacking make you worse?

One reason can be that by supplementing one nutrient, other co-nutrients involved in the same metabolic pathways, are used faster than replenished by diet alone.

For example bringing Vitamin D up to therapeutic levels in my case depleted all my magnesium stores (despite also supplementing, but too low for its need), which I finally only could overcome with Mg-sulfate IVs (beside also supplementing in average 1.7g of oral elemental Mg during the last 11 years).

One classic example of how intervined all B-vitamins are, in this grossly simplified graph:

Also fatsolubles like vitamin D might need beside Mg, Boron, also K2 vitamins and A. The problem of course is, we are all different with different needs. Therefore always good to start low dose and increase gradually for catching an imbalance earlier. If possible, lab-testing for nutrients can be of great help.

There is no easy set which works for everyone, but considering how widespread nutrient deficiencies - if compared to the for disease-states too low EAR - are, I wouldn't go without a B-complex (with methylfolate instead of folic acid), and part of a well designed multivitamin/mineral too:

How Much is Too Much? : Appendix B: Vitamin and Mineral Deficiencies in the U.S.

Nutrient from food alone, ranked by the occurrence of dietary inadequacy among adults | Percentage of dietary intakes below the estimated average requirement for a specific population* | Naturally occurring sources of nutrient**

2-to-8-year-old children | 14-to-18-year-old girls | Adults 19 and older

Vitamin D | 81% | 98% | 95% | Fatty fish, mushrooms [vitamin D is naturally formed in the body when skin is exposed to sunlight; vitamin D is added to fortified milk]

Vitamin E | 65% | 99% | 94% | Nuts, seeds, vegetable oils, green leafy vegetables

Magnesium | 2% | 90% | 61% | Whole grains, wheat bran and wheat germ, green leafy vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds

Vitamin A | 6% | 57% | 51% | Preformed vitamin A: liver, fatty fish, milk, eggs; provitamin A carotenoids: carrots, pumpkins, tomatoes, leafy green vegetables

Calcium | 23% | 81% | 49% | Milk, yogurt, cheese, kale, broccoli

Vitamin C | 2% | 45% | 43% | All fruits and vegetables, particularly citrus fruits and tomatoes

Vitamin B6 | 0.1% | 18% | 15% | Many foods; highest levels in fish, beef, poultry, potatoes and other starchy vegetables, and fruit other than citrus

Folate | 0.2% | 19% | 13% | Many foods; highest levels in spinach, liver, asparagus, Brussels sprouts [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Zinc | 0.2% | 24% | 12% | Red meat, poultry, beans, nuts, some seafood, whole grains

Iron | 0.7% | 12% | 8% | Highest amounts in meat and seafood; lower levels in nuts and beans [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Thiamin | 0.1% | 10% | 7% | Whole grain products [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Copper | 0% | 16% | 5% | Shellfish, whole grains, beans, nuts, potatoes, organ meats (kidneys, liver)

Vitamin B12 | 0% | 7% | 4% | Animal products: fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk

Riboflavin | 0% | 5% | 2% | Milk and dairy products, eggs, meat, green leafy vegetables, legumes [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Niacin | 0.1% | 4% | 2% | Meat, fish, seeds and nuts, whole grains [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Selenium | 0% | 2% | 1% | Found in different plant and animal foods; highest levels in seafood and organ meats (kidneys, liver)

 

[Ronagrenade2020]

May I ask what is the best multivitamin for cfs? I am looking online and it's so confusing.

I just want to take all the right stuff, rest and heal.

 

[pamojja]

May I ask what is the best multivitamin for cfs?

There isn't a best multivitamin already for seemingly still healthy people, the less for individuals of any condition. But some criteria to consider I wrote up some time ago in this post: https://www.longecity.org/forum/stacks/stack/113-multi-vitamin-and-mineral-stack/

 

[PatJ]

How can supplements that are good for the very thing most are lacking make you worse?

Some people with ME/CFS have trouble keeping their blood sugar up and stable. Some of the supplements you listed, such as coq10, ALA, and acetyl-l-carnitine can lower blood sugar. Those particular supplements, even though they're often beneficial in some ways, could make a person feel worse if blood sugar was lowered too much.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hi @Ronagrenade2020 ....
Dont't want to be Debbie Downer, but the only thing that remains absolutely true for all of us, across the entire spectrum of ME, is that what works for you might not work for me, and might in fact make me worse.

People can recommend what helped them, but in terms of helping you specifically, it's anecdotal. You'll find the same thing in the One-Size-Fits-All recommendations on the internet, especially from the companies selling supplements.

I'm not saying that there's no help, but I am saying that there's no easy help, and you have to use your instinvts, experience, and intuition to a certain extent, especially before leaping enthusiastically into something that helped A and D, but might actually make you worse.

As another poster here mentions, the two uncontroverted ME Rules Of Thumb, are:

• START LOW AND GO SLOW. Take the smallest possible dose an increase it gradually and by small increments. If you react to it at some point, you wont have a whole load of it in your system to weigh you down for God knows how long ...
• The 2nd Law of ME is: Never start more than one new thing at a time, and try to avoid taking those gazillion ingredient cure-alls, cause if something goes wrong, you'll have no idea which of the 150 ingredients caused the issues for you, so nothing will be learned.

Vit c 2000mg day

This has proven enormously helpful for me, along with magnesium glycinate, which is essential to between 300 and 400 systemic actions and conversions.

Vit D 3000iu day

This seems like a good middle of the road dosage, tho I found at some point that it had turned on me in a nasty way, and I had to drop it out of rotation for about 18 months, along with pretty much everything else I'd been taken without incident for God knows how many years. This included all forms of th B vits, includng methylfolate, P5P, all the heroes of so many other people's arsenals.

Once I started dosing with magnesium glycinate, I was able to add Vit D back in very very slowly starting with liquid drops meant for babies, and building gradually from there.

You may find mag gly helpful too.

I am thinking of adding mitochondrial support of: Coq10 - 200mg, Selenium-200mg, D ribose, Creatine 5 grams day, ALA, Acetyl L Carnatine

Going thru my experience with these, which may or may not be yours:

• CO Q 1O ... was very helpful. I started with 3o mgs a day, boosted that after a weel to 2x a day, then kept boosting gradually to 180 mgs a day.
• Selenium .... I was reactive to it for quite a while, and then gradually started adding it back in very slowly. I think it's helped, it's certainly helped my thyroid.
• Ribose .... has helped a lot of people, but for some of them it seems to have a short time-frame, and for others it stopped working all together.
• Creatine .... bit me on the @ss hard, haven't tried adding it back in yet.
• ALA .... As above
• Acetyl-L-carnitine .... not a happy experience, and havent retrialed it again yet.

I also recommend the antioxidant astaxanthin

Astaxanthin was sort of meh-to-not great for me, with a slight draining effect after the first 2 or 3 hours .... cant remember my exact reaction to it, but I stopped taking it and so far havent restarted.

and a good collagen supplement for amino acids and peptides.

Be very, very careful with collagen and gelatins in general. In some of us, they produce a distinctly unpleasant effect.

They're produced by hydrolyziing a whole protein, like milk, and breaking the bonds between the amino acids, which creates some real Devil's Deals, like free glutamic acid, which can cause an imbalance in your GABA/Glutamate neurotransmitters. These are neurotransmitters that calm or agitate you, respectively, and both play an important role in your CNS and brain. But when they're out of balance, bad things can happen, ranging from mild anxiety to extreme, crippling panic attacks, heart palpitations, chest and head pressure, worsened ability to sleep, and a host of other unpleasant manifestations.

It's hard to explain why this happens, since your digestion will break a whole protein into component amino acids when you eat meat or cheese or any other protein source, but I've lived it, and it's a deep, deep, sticky, gluey pool of misery I dont want to every revisit, havning been trapped there for several years without understanding what was going on, or what was wrong.

I was using a highly regarded form of whey protein to round out my already diminishing diet, and it was just merry effing hell.

If you do want to try a form of gelatin-bsed protein, I'd stay away from collagen, which is even more highly processed than gelatin, which itself is already pretty processed. The more processed, the more potential for reactions, tho not in all of us. Gelatin contains the same aminos in pretty much the same proportions, and I've never found the statements regarding how much more easily assimilated the collagen form is to be accurate, at least not for me.

You might also substitute BCAAs, branched chain amino acids, which is an amino acid that has an aliphatic side-chain with a branch, hence branched-chain. BCAAs as used here mean proteinogenic chains, containing three BCAAs: leucine, isoleucine, and valine, and they've worked well for a lot of people in these threads. They improve endurance and reduce the length of time it takes to bounce back after over-exertion, which for many of us can mean lifting a spoon, at least on a bad day.

You only need vitamin D if you're low in it. Check your laboratory results before deciding to supplement with it.

Vit D levels are fairly easy to evaluate, but there are two different tests which test two different forms or locations, as it were. The accepted norm for the 25 (OH) D, which many consider to be way too low, is about 30-40 ng/mL (nanograms per milliliter).

This is gettng way more detailed and confusing that I intended, but as a quick warning here, your body can't effectively absorb Vit D without substantial magnesium, and often what are viewed as a reaction to taking Vit D is really a reaction to the rapid draining effect that Vit D has on your magnesium stores, which are probably already low because it's so essential in so any functional enzyme conversions and other things.

Creatine can improve the speed of digestion and improve muscle strength. But it may aggravate digestive problems, so go slow if you have digestive issues.

I can;t remeber it's exact effect on me, but it wasn't happy ....

Also +1 to going slow, and adding 1 thing at a time for a week or so before trying another.

This is terrific advice !!!

Do I need to push for more pharmaceutical intervention?

I'd recommend against it, unless you have an EXTEMELY ME savvy Dr. Otherwise, you'll just be endlessly dosed with anti-depresants, which often do way more damage than good and are hell to cycle off of, or, even worse, antibiotics and/or anti-anxiety drugs, eac doing their own specialized damages in their own inimitable ways, all of which are probably best avoided.

Just keep putting your questions out in these threads, read any other threads that have subject matter that appeals to you, do your research, trial things very carefully. You'll get a much better result, at least I did, but as I've said before, that's just me.

How can supplements that are good for the very thing most are lacking make you worse?

This disease works on so many systems, and thru so many pathways, that while a substance may seem to be an obvious answer, you might be overlooking essental co-factors and get either no results, or really bad/poor ones.

This isn;t a simple disease. It's a real biatch.

If mitochondrial function is low surely boosting would help? If body struggling with ATP surely ATP boosters would help?

See above.

I hope this hasn't put you to sleep, and I hope it helps. I remember my own confusion and despair when I started addressing these issues, and well before I found this site, which speeded my already incipient improvement by light years.

Tag me if you have any questions, which goes for anyone else here who says something that interests or confuses you .... we've all been where you are .... we're hoping to nver go back ...

Onward and upward

 

[Wishful]

How can supplements that are good for the very thing most are lacking make you worse?

Here's the critical question: what are most of us lacking in terms of nutrients? The answer is: we don't know. We don't know what is going on with ME, so we don't know which supplements might help in general, and no one knows what will help a specific PWME. What works for one might make another feel worse. The only way to know which supplements should continue taking is to experiment and discover which ones help you at which dosage.

If mitochondrial function is low surely boosting would help?

We don't even know whether low mitochondrial function is actually a significant part of ME. Some studies have found reduced mito function in some cells in some PWME, but it's not as simple as "ME symptoms are due to low mito function". Other studies have found normal levels of ATP. Will a super-duper-awesome mito cocktail boost your energy levels? Really, the only way to know is to try it yourself. There's a chance it will make you feel better, there's a chance it will make you feel worse, and there's a chance that it will do nothing noticeable. There's even a chance that it will crash you disastrously for many months. Mitochondrial function is not as simple as "adding supplement x will boost your ATP production and make you feel more energetic".

I was hoping that by end of year 1 I would be feeling better and at least able to do normal stuff, then if still not right I will invest in the stronger substances..

I think many of us here felt the same way at first, absolutely convinced that there was an answer, whether it was stronger drugs or a complicated cocktail of drugs and supplements. As years and decades pass with no improvement, despite many doctors and treatments, many of us accept that there is no specialist that will know the correct treatment to prescribe. I still believe that ME is treatable and maybe even curable, since temporary full remissions do occur, but no one yet knows how to trigger remission reliably. I do think that it's likely that one day we'll be able to get a a prescription for a pill, take it, and be fully healthy again within hours. We're just waiting for the researchers to find out what's going on and how to correct it.

While we're waiting for the researchers (hurry up people!), we can try all sorts of different things and hope for happy accidents. I don't believe that "the stronger the drug, the more likely it is to work for ME". Without knowing what target to aim for, blasting away with bigger guns isn't productive, and is more likely to be destructive (and expensive). It is possible that something in your local grocery store has just the right chemical in it to correct part of the problem. The difference between some super-strong anti-cancer drug and a chemical in apples or lettuce might be only a few atomic bonds.

One thing is for sure I can't stay in bed all day forever, so I need a solution that gives me some form of life..

I really do understand, but that doesn't mean that such a solution is going to be listed somewhere, or even that it exists anywhere right now. Maybe right now there's a chemical in a fungus that will cure us...but the fungus is only found in a 2 sq km patch of rainforest somewhere, and it doesn't have a big sign over it saying "Cure for ME". Maybe the cure will require understanding the true core dysfunction of ME, engineering a chemical to correct it, and engineering a complex nanotech delivery vehicle for it. What we do know right now is that despite all the drugs and supplements and other treatments that PWME have tried, there is no treatment that works for more than a few individuals, and no one knows how to tell which individuals they are likely to work on.

From the stories here on PR, I get the impression that those of us who have made improvements in our lives, have done so mainly through lengthy trials of many different things or through unexpected discoveries.

My experience:

at 2.5 years of ME, I accidentally cured the type IV food sensitivity that started with my ME (or maybe started my ME?). I think the cure was spoiled coconut milk, but I can't prove it.
at maybe 8 years, I discovered that T2 or iodine provided a significant benefit (one dose every 21 days)
at maybe 10 years, I tried LDN and found that it effectively blocked the neuropathic pain.
at maybe 12 years, I found that l-carnitine allowed me to eat meat again without worsening symptoms
at around 15 years, I discovered that cumin blocked my PEM.

There were a few more discoveries that reduced symptoms, but they only worked for a few days or weeks, but then stopped working, which is common with ME. Five discoveries in 18 years may not sound like much, especially to people who haven't had ME long, but those discoveries made huge differences in my quality of life. Furthermore, all of the symptoms they worked on seem to have been permanently banished. I'm presently not taking any treatments or supplements for ME, since I don't have any left that do anything.

I understand that you want a treatment that works NOW! I'm pretty sure everyone here has wanted that. I'm also pretty sure that few if any managed to get that. Many of us have managed to find one or more treatments that makes a significant difference. It takes time, and effort, and patience, and luck. Since you're just starting out on that process, I think there's a good chance that you can find some treatments that work for you. I think it's unlikely that you'll find one by pushing doctors for 'stronger drugs' when no one knows what the correct target for the drug is. I do recommend trying different foods, herbs and spices. I've munched on various leaves and berries in the forest simply because I don't know that they won't work, and they're as likely to be an effective treatment as any super-dangerous pharmaceutical that isn't designed to treat ME.

 

[Wishful]

The 2nd Law of ME is: Never start more than one new thing at a time, and try to avoid taking those gazillion ingredient cure-alls, cause if something goes wrong, you'll have no idea which of the 150 ingredients caused the issues for you, so nothing will be learned.

I have to argue against that law. If you take a tablet with 150 ingredients, and you feel some significant response, you can then test the ingredients individually and find out which one is responsible. Just getting a response means that you've learned that something in those 150 ingredients is important, which is way better than not knowing anything at all. I noticed a big improvement from one of those multivitamin/mineral tablets. I then tried the vitamins separately (no effects noticed). I started taking minerals two-by-two (to save time), and found that iodine was the active nutrient. I don't think I would have invested in 31 different bottles of tablets without knowing that one of them actually did something. I haven't bought a bottle of every herb and spice available either; one of them might have an effect, but the chance seems too small to be a worthwhile gamble. A bottle of mixed spices is a better gamble. A thousand ingredient cure-all might be a pretty good gamble (gazillion is way too many).

START LOW AND GO SLOW. Take the smallest possible dose an increase it gradually and by small increments. If you react to it at some point, you wont have a whole load of it in your system to weigh you down for God knows how long ...

That's a good one if you're expecting a possible bad effect, and especially if you are prone to lengthy crashes. I never had a lengthy crash, so I didn't worry about bad responses. A bad day once in a while was worth the ability to notice a good effect from testing a whole bunch of things quickly. If I took 3 months to test each potential treatment in slowly-increasing dosages, I might not have found the ones that worked. There's even a possibility that small incremental increases will hide that it's actually working. If you feel slightly better 3 months after starting something, maybe it's just an unrelated change in your ME. A dramatic change the day after trying something is much easier to notice.

If you're prone to lengthy crashes, low and slow might be a good rule. If you're not prone, and are in a hurry, a big dose might be a better choice.

 

[Wishful]

There isn't a best multivitamin already for seemingly still healthy people, the less for individuals of any condition.

If there was a real "this works for a lot of us" treatment for ME, I think we'd know about it by now. What we see are a few treatments that work for several people, have no effect on more people, and have a negative effect on a few more. A treatment that is reported to work for several people is probably a better choice than a treatment that no one has reported on, but it's not all that much better of a chance.

For multivitamins, or supplements in general, I think that there's usually only a tiny chance that there will be a noticeable difference between brands. Deciding factors might be ingredients that you are allergic to, or the particular form (B12 has three, for example), but other than that, price and convenience might be more important. Each purchase has only a slight chance of providing a noticeable benefit, so the more purchases you can make, the more likely that you'll find one that works for you. If one does work, then you can experiment to see whether a more expensive brand is noticeably better.

If the cheap brand doesn't have a noticeable effect, a more expensive brand is just more money down the toilet.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I have to argue against that law.

It's your dime ....

That's a good one if you're expecting a possible bad effect, and especially if you are prone to lengthy crashes.

Starting low and going slow doesn't have as its sole purpose the avoidance of a possible severe crash, altho it's certainly one of its benefits.

Another one is that it allows your body, already under considerble assault from this picayune little piss-ant of an illness, to adjust to a new substance gradually, rather than being dive bombed with it which could set up a reaction that could be unpleasant, where using a more discrete method that eaction would be non-existent.

. If you take a tablet with 150 ingredients, and you feel some significant response, you can then test the ingredients individually and find out which one is responsible

I won;t even go into how much time and money testing out 150 separate ingredients would entail. I'm assuming you're just playing devil's advocate ....

If you're prone to lengthy crashes, low and slow might be a good rule. If you're not prone, and are in a hurry, a big dose might be a better choice.

This is incredibly irresponsible advice, @Wishful. You might want to reconsider your post ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

If the cheap brand doesn't have a noticeable effect, a more expensive brand is just more money down the toilet.

And again, I disagree.

While price doesn't always guarantee quality, and it's certainly worth it to use a cheaper brand if it agrees with you and does the job, the cheaper brands often have inactives that could play hell with your system and cause considerable distress. The more expensive brands would have as one of their selling points the fact that they dont use those particular fillers, or bind the main active to something that really helps it absorbability, that the cheaper version can't afford.

Think.

 

[wigglethemouse]

Please check your levels first before deciding you need to supplement. Too much can be damaging or cause a decline. Two examples
1. Selenium can pull out heavy metals
2. Too much B6 can cause issues such as small fiber neuropathy

 

[Pyrrhus]

Please check your levels first before deciding you need to supplement. Too much can be damaging or cause a decline. Two examples
1. Selenium can pull out heavy metals

Thanks for your input. Could you provide a source for your claim that "selenium can pull out heavy metals"?
In the usual supplemental form of methyl-selenocysteine, I can see no way that that could happen.

2. Too much B6 can cause issues such as small fiber neuropathy

Actually, only synthetic pyridoxine can cause small fiber neuropathy. The natural form of vitamin B6 is pyridoxal (P-5-P). The natural form does not cause small fiber neuropathy, and any excess is easily eliminated from the body. In fact, the way that synthetic pyridoxine causes small fiber neuropathy is by blocking the action of the natural form pyridoxal, leading to a paradoxical B6 deficiency!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887233317301959

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

1. Selenium can pull out heavy metals
2. Too much B6 can cause issues such as small fiber neuropathy

I had a rough time with both of those before I gave up and stopped taking them. It took awhile to readjust, and when I was able to start back on small doses, I was very careful about how much.

Mostly because th last phlebotomist who had at me, in spite of wanings about being a hard stick, tore my last good vein literally in half, right down the middle. Im not sure I can endure another blood draw, so I have to do it the dumb, careful way ...

Your advice is right on ...