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What happens when you take methylated B vitamins without any gene defects?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Konflict, Mar 2, 2017.

  1. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    took metafolin, Methylcobalamin and p5p and after a few weeks felt tired and fatigued all the time...kept taking them. Then after a few weeks of feeling fatigued I perked up for about a week and went back to baseline feeling with a few side effects to show for it.

    Then in January after doing a few weeks of a very low carb diet I crashed and am declining ever since....symptoms like total body dehydration, bone/joint/spinal cracking and pain, excessive urination, constipation, insomnia, extreme brain fog, etc. Eveything (especially the dehydration body wide) is getting worse and I can barely move my body without feeling like I'm going to crack a bone or my spine in half. Also I developed heightened senses (smell, taste, hearing).

    I have never been genetic tested, just took methylated vitamins because I heard they were the best. So I want to know if it was safe to still take them even without possibly having any gene mutations? What kind of issues would happen if one took these when there was no need? My doctors can't find out what's going on, all blood tests are in normal range.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  2. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    TigerLilea likes this.
  3. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I was also thinking low potassium.
     
    Mary likes this.
  4. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    I've been drinking about 32oz of coconut water a day for the last 3-4 days, but nothing no help yet. My spine and neck feel totally dry and ALL joints are cracking very easily (including my jaw and event my chest bone, loose neck and back vertabre). Receding gums as well, front two teeth are becoming loose.....unless these are all common side effects from methylated B vitamins?

    So people without the MTHFR mutation can safely take methylated vitamins the same way people with the mutation can?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  5. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Konflict - first, when you reply to someone, it's a really good idea to tag them like this, putting the "@" sign in front of their user name: @Konflict or @Mary - when you do that, the person will receive an alert that you have responded to them and will be more likely to respond to your response.

    I've never heard of those problems you're having (dehydration, receding gums, etc.) as arising from methylation. I don't think they're connected, but I couldn't say for sure.

    I just read that cracking joints can be related to dehydration, and I also read that although coconut water is a good source of potassium, it's not a great source of sodium. And loss of sodium can cause dehydration. http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/hormonal-and-metabolic-disorders/water-balance/dehydration
    https://dripdrop.com/coconut-water-actually-reverse-dehydration/

    So you may need to take more sodium.

    Also, this article mentions a vitamin D deficiency as sometimes causing cracking joints: http://www.livestrong.com/article/499588-my-joints-are-cracking-and-popping-when-exercising/

    Were you also taking a B complex when you were taking the metafolin, B12 and P5P? Taking certain individual Bs without the whole complex can sometimes cause a deficiency of other B vitamins. But again I don't know how that would cause the symptoms you're having. It sounds more like a an electrolyte imbalance to me - but I can't diagnose you and can only make suggestions.
     
  6. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    @Mary ok I will make sure of this in this future. I've also been taking an extra teaspoon of sea salt everyday but to no avail yet.

    Yes I was only taking metafolin, Methylcobalamin, p5p and also riboflavin. I'm still a noobie on what methylation is and what it can do to someone, but I'm wondering if when I crashed from it and then overmethylated I activated some gene switch to silence certain hormone receptors? (Maybe it doesn't work like that idk). These are all symptoms of low Estrogen, also symptoms of low boron, but I have no idea why my body would simply "crash" and the symptoms get worse over time.

    A lot of my symptoms seem to be on par with ehlors danlos syndrome....could I have potentially flipped a switch to activate that? Again, I truly don't understand methylation even after looking it up several times...I'm just not very intelligent on this subject and was dumb for even taking methylated vitamins in the first place.

    Can you alter collagen genetics from taking the supplements I took?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  7. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Konflict - I'm really sorry, I can't answer any of your questions. If at all possible, it might be helpful if you could find an integrative or functional medicine doctor, or a naturopath, who could help you sort out everything.

    One more thing - I just read that very low carb diets can cause dehydration and other unpleasant effects - so that may be part of the problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  8. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    Ok @Mary thanks for trying to help and including your input.

    I'm still wondering how/if taking those vitamins can continue to make me feel this way. Could taking vitamin E (which works as an Aromatase inhibitor by changing gene expression) while taking the methyl b vitamins and feeling the effects of over/under methylation while taking them can permanently lead to changes in hormone gene expression.

    I really don't know if that's how methylation works but I'm trying to get to the bottom of this somehow. Or if simply just taking the E alone is enough to alter the epigentics?

    Here's the link about how vitamin E alters gene expression:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16091003
     
  9. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Hi @Konflict, okay, I'm going to take a stab at a few things here (but I'm not an expert!) First, your symptoms don't sound like low estrogen from what I see on-line. I don't see anything about severe dehydration and receding gums being linked to low estrogen.

    That's an interesting article about vitamin E and estrogen. I have a niece who is taking tamoxifen (I wish she wasn't!) I may pass this on to her.

    I know you know that methylation is a normal process. We all need B12 and folate, regardless of whether or not we have MTHFR mutations. Someone can be deficient in these nutrients regardless of MTHFR mutations. I believe the effect of having a MTHFR mutation primarily increases the need for these nutrients. So although you don't have these mutations, it's still possible that you could be deficient in B12 or folate or B6, or all of them, and might need supplementation. e.g., vegetarians are notorious for being deficient in B12.

    From what I have seen on the forum, the primary effect of too much of these nutrients is overmethylation, which can be slowed down by decreasing the dose and also taking niacin.
    This article mentions common symptoms of overmethylation (they do not include dehydration): http://www.mensahmedical.com/common-symptoms-of-overmethylation/

    As to whether these supplements could cause permanent changes in gene expression, I doubt it, but cannot say for sure of course. However, I would stop thinking in terms of permanent change to gene expression. Again, I urge you to find a knowledgeable doctor to help you if at all possible.

    And if you try any more supplements, read about them carefully and only start one new thing at a time. I've found that works best for me; other wise it's impossible to say what is doing what to you. You might need B12 but not folate, or vice versa, etc.

    re your dehydration which seems to be a major issue, I would tackle the most obvious suspects first - the very low-carb diet which causes dehydration, and perhaps a potassium-sodium imbalance - you may need more than 1 tsp. of sodium a day. Both of these together might have hit you very hard.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  10. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    @Mary thanks for your reply. I have currently been off the low carb diet for 6 weeks with no results, and yes maybe I will up the sodium intake to 2 tsp a day for awhile and see if it helps.

    Even though this is the methylation page, I did find this article about vitamin E and how it changes your bodies cells response to estrogen.

    https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/vitamin-e-is-an-estrogen-receptor-antagonist.8506/

    Low estrogen is very associated with sodium loss, inability for the body to hold water, osteoarthritis, joint cracking, dry skin, insomnia, gastrointestinal issues. Idk If there is a way to test for these types of changes though :/
     
  11. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Konflict - that's fascinating about vitamin E and estrogen. Thank you for the article.

    Why don't you get your estrogen levels tested?
     
  12. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    I did a week after my crash @Mary my levels were 18pg/mL and the ranges can vary anywhere from 15-40 pg/mL. The thing is with the way vitamin E works on estrogen, I think my number might not necessarily matter if it alters the way it responds to the receptor. My body makes estrogen but isn't being used in the proper way eI this theory.
     
  13. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    It either has to be that, or I had some epigentic change when taking folate and Methylcobalamin that's causing hormonal/connective tissue issues....but idk if it's even possible that folate and Methylcobalamin can do that.
     
  14. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Well, your number was near the bottom of the range, so I'm wondering if it might be helpful to add in some estrogen, or products that increase estrogen. I know estrogen does not work the same way as potassium, but, for example, although my potassium levels were always in the normal range, they were in the bottom half of the range, and I would get symptoms of low potassium despite my "normal" numbers, and had to add in extra.

    Also were you taking a lot of vitamin E? And if vitamin E did do something to your estrogen receptors, then you very well may need more estrogen, particularly since your number is almost at the bottom.

    I've never read anything about folate and methylcobalamin causing hormonal/connective tissue issues.
     
  15. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    Thanks @Mary yes I'm guessing that since each hormone/substance in our body reacts differently to each individual I may be experiencing low E symptoms.

    I was mainly taking it because I wanted to add a natural antioxidant, and to benefit from the skin benefits it offers....I just didn't know it had an effect on hormones, I had to do some digging to find that article.

    Another vitamin I was taking was K2 recommended by my doctor due to my high end blood calcium, and that also has an effect on testosterone/estrogen :(

    https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/vitamin-k2-directly-inhibits-new-estrogen-synthesis.5471/

    Seems like my body is one of the most sensitive on earth and anything I take messes me up for good.....idk if there's any way to recover
     
  16. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Konflict - I know it's very frustrating. I can't tell you how many dead ends I have gone down in trying to regain my health - they seemed endless at the time. But I have made progress, although it has not been easy by any means.

    One thing that I believe has helped me more than anything else in trying to figure out what's going on, and what I need, and what won't help me, is muscle testing, done by competent practitioner. I first stumbled across this in the mid-1990's after my health declining for 7 years with no help at all from doctors. There was a lot less known then about ME/CFS and adrenal problems and methylation etc. etc. The chiro was the one who first found my weak adrenals and gave me an adrenal glandular, which was like a magic pill. Using the muscle testing he helped me with a liver overloaded with toxins and my adrenals and other digestive issues - I would have been so much worse off without him. The muscle testing not only indicated what various problems were, but also what supplements would be helpful and the doses.

    It hasn't solved everything, most notably the problem of PEM. It's not 100% foolproof but it's been amazingly accurate and I don't think I would have made the progress I have made without it because it is such a wilderness living with ME/CFS.

    I eventually learned to do muscle testing on myself after having it done for several years by the chiro, but I still go back and doublecheck my results with his, and most of the time we agree.

    I don't recommend someone just watching a youtube video on it and then doing it. There are too many variables and initially I think a person needs to have a competent trained person doing, like many chiropractors are. Also, it tends to be much cheaper than a doctor. Doctors have their place but they seem to be very limited with this illness.

    If someone is looking for a practitioner, a good place to start is the Standard Process website - they make high quality food-based supplements used by many chiropractors, and there is a search feature on their website where you can look for practitioners who use their products in your area.

    I wouldn't start thinking there is no way you will recover - I keep thinking our bodies are made for health and we were all healthy at one time and I think we can get back to it. Illness is not our natural state and I don't think you've done anything so catastrophic that you can't recover.
     
  17. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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  18. Konflict

    Konflict Senior Member

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    Been really depressed this week, I feel this is all over my head and my body is just going to deteriorate. I can actually feel the vertebrae in my back moving.....I feel I'm going to become a vegetable within a few more months :'(

    I mean I don't think I have CFS even though I have several symptoms, as I only developed these symptoms after taking certain supplements. I feel I really desensitized my estrogen receptors as dumb as it sounds, but women get permanent side effects from Aromatase inhibitors who have breast cancer and it's on par with what some of them experience.

    I don't know if there's any way to test the actual sensitivity or effectiveness of my E receptors but....if it's not the vitamin E/K2 I took then it has to be the methylated B Vitamins and I'm unsure if I can "crash" from those 5 weeks after discontinued usage of them. Doctors won't listen to me and even though ALL my joints and ligaments are becoming hypermobile....especially in the neck and spine. I never knew anything like this could happen this rapidly.

    Sorry for the rant but I feel so awful just watching my physical body deteriorate so rapidly with no answers .
     

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