The power and pitfalls of omics part 2: epigenomics, transcriptomics and ME/CFS
Simon McGrath concludes his blog about the remarkable Prof George Davey Smith's smart ideas for understanding diseases, which may soon be applied to ME/CFS.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Are you feeling bad on methylation supps? or starting methylation? IMPORTANT INFO RE LOW POTASSIUM

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Mary, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    Every day I see posts by people who suddenly feel much worse since starting B12 or folate. Way too many people aren't aware that starting methylation supplements can cause a sudden and even potentially dangerous drop in potassium levels, as cells start to divide more rapidly, thus increasing the need for potassium and inducing a deficiency. I've replied to many of these threads and finally decided to do this one, hopefully it will reach more people. I'm going to try bumping it every day because every day there are more people who don't know about this.

    EVEN IF YOUR BLOOD LEVELS OF POTASSIUM ARE FINE, YOU CAN STILL HAVE SYMPTOMS OF LOW POTASSIUM. People with ME/CFS seem to have difficulty getting enough potassium into the cells, even though blood levels are in the normal range. See the thread linked below by Richvank who explains this.

    So, if you're going to take B12 and/or folate, read the threads linked below - they are very important. Low potassium can cause a myriad of symptoms: fatigue (often severe), muscle cramps, spasms, cardiac symptoms (arrhythmia and palpitations), and even mental/emotional symptoms. (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/242008-overview)

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/warning-low-potassium-is-dangerous.14410/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291410

    My experience with low potassium: I had been taking B12 for years and years but 6 or 7 years ago started taking methylfolate. Initially it gave me nice burst of energy, but within 2 or 3 days I developed severe fatigue, different than PEM. Fortunately I had read some of Freddd's posts about potassium and methylation and so immediately started taking potassium, titrating up to 1000 mg a day, in divided doses, over a couple of days, and the symptoms abated. I thereafter learned I had to take this every day and have ever since. I also drink low-sodium V8 which is high in potassium and low in sugar and calories. I even take 200 mg before bed as I am prone to low potassium in the middle of the night (leg and feet cramps). It was also very illuminating when I realized I had had these symptoms off and on before starting the methylfolate, but never knew the cause.

    The daily RDA for potassium is 4500 mg, but I think that's the minimum. So if you suspect you may have low potassium, a simple thing to try is high potassium foods like low-sodium V8. I'd try several glasses a day and see if you feel better, and if you do, then you might consider a supplement or work out a way to get enough potassium in your diet. I initially took potassium citrate but it irritated my bladder and contributed to a UTI. I switched to potassium gluconate and tolerate it just fine.
     
    Athene*, Rita1979, Jigsaw and 9 others like this.
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,507
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
  3. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    362
    AUS
    Would it be a good idea to start the potassium supplements before starting B12 and folate?
     
  4. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet CURRENTLY MODERATED FOR NOT BEING SERVILE

    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes:
    7,556
    I would suggest that you have some potassium gluconate at hand. The dropping of potassium is directly related to getting active b12 folate levels up. The severity will vary depending upon how deplete you were. It also depends upon how much potassium you already have in your diet and also how much sodium.

    I am lucky in a way that I have a recognisable symptom of heart palpitations so I know when my potassium is low. For the first few months I monitored my symptoms and adjusted my dose of potassium. I ended up with 3x 200mg potassium gluconate spread across the day (first thing in the morning, lunchtime and before bed). I know that I still need this every day since I get mild symptoms after getting up out of bed.

    In answer to your question no there is no loading before taking b12 but you need to take an appropriate dose while you take it if there isn't enough in your normal diet. We use a lot of potassium in the body in conjunction with sodium for all our cells so this needs to be replenished every day.
     
    Jigsaw, Mary, PatJ and 1 other person like this.
  5. Aroa

    Aroa

    Messages:
    86
    Likes:
    470
    Spain
    Thanks so much for your advices !!!

    It`s a lot of help when you are starting on this.

    One of the good thing of this illness is realising how many people around the world try help one another :redface:
     
    Rita1979, Paralee, Mary and 2 others like this.
  6. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    You are so right! If @Freddd had not posted about low potassium several years ago, I would not have known about this, and when I started taking methylfolate, I would have had to stop it because I felt so bad on it, and yet I needed it so much -
     
    Rita1979, Aroa and Chocolove like this.
  7. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

    Messages:
    478
    Likes:
    787
    Those with kidney disease may have problems with potassium...
    Kidney Disease: High- and Moderate-Potassium Foods
    www.eatright.org/.../kidney-disease-high-and-low-potassium-foods
    If you have kidney disease, your doctor or RDN will let you know if you need to avoid foods high in potassium. The following list shows examples of foods that are high in potassium ...

    Many people think of bananas for potassium but tomato products beat em by a long shot. Here are more options:
    Potassium Rich Foods - List of Foods High in Potassium
    www.buzzle.com/articles/potassium-rich-foods-list-of-foods-high-in...
    Potassium Rich Foods - List of Foods High in Potassium. Potassium is a predominantly intracellular mineral that is essential for a variety of cellular processes as ...
     
    Mary and Aroa like this.
  8. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    362
    AUS
    Thanks. I had my bloods done last month and the Potassium was at 4.0 mmol/L.
    I started with Mb B12 and folate end of last year but was feeling really lethargic with it. When I started the Potassium Chloride I had a real tight chest with a buzzing feeling. So I stopped everything. I have started again with Ad B12 and Pot Gluconate. But I just get so much more tired that I am reluctant to take anything. Sleep was deeper and I felt calmer.

    Maybe I should take smaller doses. Better than no reaction I suppose.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  9. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet CURRENTLY MODERATED FOR NOT BEING SERVILE

    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes:
    7,556
    Yes go low and slow is good advice for methylation supplements. everyone seems to need to start at a different level. I seemed to take 3-4 weeks to adjust to any change I made. Took me 6 months of slow small changes to get up to 10mg of methyl b12. I've moved to the transdermal oils now which is much smoother delivery than sublingual. I still take adenosyl sublingual once per week as a top up but this also makes me sleepy so it's more belt and braces for me on top of the methyl/hydroxyl oil.
     
    Aroa likes this.
  10. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    How much Ad B12 are you taking, and how much potassium gluconate?

    @arewenearlythereyet is right, low and slow is very good advice for methylation, and actually for any new supplement.
     
  11. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    362
    AUS
    I have been taking Solgar 5000mcg sublingual Vitamin B12 cobalamin with Dibencozide 100mcg. Maybe it's not actually Ad B12, it's very confusing trying to buy the right ones. And 21st Century Potassium Gluconate 595mg one a day but I think I took more on some days. The pot chloride I took was only a pinch, 1/8 teaspoon if that.

    This morning I have taken 1 X potassium gluconate and 1/4 Mb 12 enzymatic therapy. Plus the usual b's, mg etc.

    I have bought a bottle of transdermal oil as well but thought I would try finish these others first. (Worried about tooth decay.)

    And I have Solgar L-methylfotate 800mcg and Source Naturals Megafolinic 800mcg which I have stopped as I am testing the pot gluconate. I don't seem to have a problem with the gluconate. The B's has L-5-methytetrahydrofolate 400 mcg and I take one of those a day.

    I have a lot of trouble remembering what I have taken, sometimes 5 mins after I have taken them or not. I am trying to keep a record but not succeeding very well.
     
  12. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    @Lolo - I looked up the 21st Century Potassium Gluconate, and although it says 595 mg. per capsule, that's very misleading. if you read the label, it says each tablet has 99 mg. of potassium, derived from 595 mg. of potassium gluconate. So one tablet is only 99 mg. which is not very much at all. It's roughly 1/45 of the RDA. Their labeling is extremely misleading. Actually I've never seen potassium come in a dose higher than 99 mg. per tablet or capsule, I think the dosage is regulated and that potassium cannot be sold in a higher dosage without a prescription.

    So it's very possible that your fatigue after starting the B12 is due to low potassium. I don't think you've taken enough potassium to make a difference in how you feel, if it is the problem. I suggest that you try something like low-sodium V8, which has 900 mg. potassium in an 8 oz. glass, and try drinking 3 glasses or so during the day and see if it helps. Or get other high potassium foods. People always ask about bananas - they're good but only have around 400 mg. potassium each, so you might have to eat a lot of bananas, and that's a lot of sugar, which I can't tolerate. Anyways, if you start to feel better after ingesting high potassium foods (and it could take a couple of days to get results), then I think you would have a good indication that you may need more potassium and may consider taking a supplement in a high enough dose to actually help.

    When taking a potassium supplement, it is important to start low - e.g., 200 mg. 3 x a day (total 600 mg. a day), and gradually increase if needed - e.g., I worked up to 1000 mg. a day, over a period of 2 or 3 days, because I didn't know how I was going to react. And now I can easily take 1000 mg. a day (roughly 25% of the RDA) with no problem, in divided doses. The divided doses part is important too - I wouldn't take 1000 mg all at once.

    It would be very helpful if you did keep a record of what you are taking. Keep a notebook handy or do what you need to do to make sure you write it down, since it's hard to remember afterwards what you've taken.
     
    Paralee and Aroa like this.
  13. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    362
    AUS
    @Mary Thanks for your reply. Yes that is misleading. It thought it was strange because I had read about the 99mg limit.
    I don't want to use the V8 because I react to the night shades. It would be easier though.

    I eat a banana, sweet potatoes and carrots everyday plus different meats, once a week liver or kidneys. Usually I eat lots of greens that I grow myself but from what I read it may be better to stop them because of their folates even though they are also a source of potassium. Molasses is also high in potassium but I don't think that would be a good idea to rely on, just another small addition. I keep looking at the food charts for something else. Eat more white beans!

    So I'll take pot gluconate 3 times a day and add in a little of the potassium chloride powder.

    When would you suggest I start the folates again?

    I try to remember to write things down and then I transfer it to the computer on a spreadsheet so it's easier to read.
     
  14. Jade east

    Jade east

    Messages:
    18
    Likes:
    15
    Potassium citrate tablet available in 1080 mg by prescription only.
     
  15. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    362
    AUS
    I have Sunfood Hemp Protein powder which has 400mg potassium in a scoop/serving. Also has 30% folate whatever which one that is.
     
  16. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    @Lolo - I'm not an expert of methylation so can only tell you what I would do - there are others on the board here who know more about it than I do and might have a different take on it. Having said that, here's what I would do -

    First, I try to only start one new thing at a time so that I can tell what I am reacting to, good or bad. I would not add in folate until I knew more about how the B12 was affecting me. I think you need to find out if B12 is causing your potassium levels to tank, and for me the best way to do this was through taking potassium and seeing how I reacted. I've described above how I titrated up to 1000 mg over a couple of days. I'm not saying 1000 mg is what you or anyone else needs, it's just what works for me. Others take more, some less. Okay, think I am repeating myself here! :rolleyes:

    Once you sort out the B12 and potassium issue, then I would add in folate, in a small dose to begin with.

    One reason to take B12 before starting folate is that folate can mask a B12 deficiency, so I've read you should always take B12 if you are going to take folate.

    Low potassium is not the only cause of fatigue when starting methylation. It can also trigger detoxing and perhaps other things, but from what I experienced and read here, low potassium is the culprit a large percentage of the time and I think should be explored first.

    B12 never caused detoxing for me, and folate didn't either, until I tried to increase it (folate) from 1600 mcg to 2400. But detoxing is a whole other story and may not even affect you.

    Good luck! :)
     
    Aroa and arewenearlythereyet like this.
  17. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet CURRENTLY MODERATED FOR NOT BEING SERVILE

    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes:
    7,556
    Paralee, Aroa and Mary like this.
  18. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    I use something very similar, mine has 7 slots - it's for a week's worth of supplemetns, one slot for each day, only I use all 7 slots for one day's worth of pills - argghhh! pills before breakfast, after breakfast, and so on and on and on - But it works :confused::D
     
  19. Lolo

    Lolo Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    362
    AUS
    @Mary
    I have read many posts and many threads before starting this thing. What a brain drain!
    I started with just Mb B12 and 1/4 tab folate and was very tired then I tried B12 and pot chloride and that's when I got the chest problems. So then I thought I would try just pot gluconate and that seems fine so now I have added 1/4 tab Mb B12 and see how I go. And I will keep up the potassium foods. I will try the potasssium chloride again at a pinch next week as I bought 2 containers of it as I have to order from overseas and didn't want to run out.

    Do you avoid leafy greens? I don't like reducing the variety of foods.

    I have 7 day container with am and pm slots.
     
  20. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    5,872
    Southern California
    @Lolo - brain drain indeed - It's insane, I totally agree, trying stay on top of everything! :nervous:

    I'm glad you're doing okay with potassium gluconate. I first started taking potassium using potassium citrate but it irritated my urinary tract and contributed to a UTI and then I switched to potassium gluconate and had no further problems. So it seems various types of potassium affect us in different ways. I hate to say it but if the potassium chloride causes you chest problems, you may have to forget about taking it. But I'm not saying give up on it yet, just be on the lookout for this type of reaction.

    How much potassium gluconate are you taking?

    I don't avoid leafy greens, they don't seem to be a problem for me, though I know they can be for some people.
     
    Aroa likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page