1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Phoenix Rising Adds Two New Board Members
Mark Berry introduces the new President of Phoenix Rising, Dr. Gary Solomon, and welcomes Professor Jonathan Edwards to the Phoenix Rising Board of Directors.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

PFS Sufferer -- help with 23andMe?

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by Koni, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. Koni

    Koni

    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
    Hi. I took finasteride (aka propecia or proscar) medication for years and suffer from persistent, debilitating sexual dyfunction years after discontinuation. There are lots of poor unfortunate young men like me here: www.propeciahelp.com. The condition has been termed PFS (Post Finasteride Syndrome). TRT and hormones and tons of conventional therapies have not worked for us, and recoveries are rare and unclear. Other symptoms include lethargy, brain fog, immune issues, etc.

    It's been determined that finasteride is "oxidative stress in a pill" and many of us PFSers are discovering issues with MTHFR, glutathione depletion, etc. Finasteride lowers DHT, a powerful male hormone and antioxidant. This appears to have an effect on our androgen expression / androgen receptors. It's a vicious cycle.

    To further elaborate on my symptoms: I am in an impotent state with virtually no brain-to-penis connection, lack of penile sensitivity, lack of butterflies, lack of arousal, lack of lust/libido -- total disconnection from the opposite sex. I find girls beautiful, but something is missing -- this is the common thread with all PFSers.

    Any advice on supplements / treatment / approach? Thank you!

    Gene & Variation
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Koni

    Koni

    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,036
    Likes:
    1,708
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Can you post your detox SNPs too? You can run those through Genetic Genie as well.
     
  4. Koni

    Koni

    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,672
    Likes:
    10,069
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    Koni - There's really not much going with those SNPs. Methylfolate and MTR recycling might be a little bit slow, but it shouldn't be enough to cause problems. Based on the methylation results, the very most that might be indicated is supplementing normal doses of B6, folate, and B12, basically what you would get in a B-complex or multivitamin.

    There are other methylation gene variations which could be relevant listed at:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-mthfr-variations.24543/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-mtr-variations.24572/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-mtrr-variations.24551/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-cbs-variations.24492/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-bhmt-and-bhmt2-variations.24512/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-ahcy-variations.24498/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-acat1-and-acat2-variations.24494/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-vdr-variations.24480/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-comt-variations.24672/

    Another option is to "go fishing" for rare SNPs you might have with a rare allele analyzing program. I've got more info about one we put online just yesterday at http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/download-for-rare-snp-analysis.24983/
     
  6. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

    Messages:
    1,480
    Likes:
    407
    Upstate SC, USA
    You may find some helpful advice on this forum as they have been preaching finasteride as having long term side effects for years:

    http://www.allthingsmale.com/forum/forum.php?s=d6a27b9e32e0e0ea16b735c1cd2064f7
     
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,036
    Likes:
    1,708
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Your methylation SNPs don't look too bad. There would be some problems with folate and B12, but not horrible. Your BHMT or secondary methylation pathway is fairly gummed up. But the primary pathway should be able to compensate for that. But anyway, this would still cause some reduction in glutathione production, which is the major way the body detoxifies toxins.

    For your COMT / VDR combination Yasko suggests hydroxycobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin, but with less methylcobalamin.

    For your detox SNPs, interestingly, your CYP3A4 SNPs which are the ones which would specifically detoxify finasteride, are fine.

    You have some CYP1B1 SNPs which would suggest problems detoxifying estrogen, i.e. estrogen dominance. This is applicable to both males and females, and can cause estrogen related cancers such as breast, uterine, or prostate.

    CYP1A1 detoxifies smoke. Detoxigenomics doesn't show CYP1A2, so I'm thinking this might be an error in Genetic Genie, and it was actually meant to be CYP1A1.

    You have a couple of GSTP SNPs which means you would require more glutathione than the average person.

    The CYP2C19 and CYP2D6's detoxify other medicines.

    =-=-=-==-=-
    So based on this, I'm thinking that glutathione depletion is your major problem. Glutathione is required by the HPA axis organs/glands for signalling. This would impact hormones. Around here we usually see this as thyroid and adrenal problems, but why not other organs/glands? DHEA is required for sexual functioning/libido and lack of it kills libido. DHEA is produced by the adrenals. Lethargy, brain fog, and immune issues would fit right in with this.

    I've personally had a 50% improvement in thyroid and adrenals from doing methylation, which corroborates this hypothesis. So I'm thinking a straight up methylation program to increase glutathione would be the thing to do.

    I'm also seeing some google hits on finasteride and leaky gut. Immune problems would go along with this as most of the immune system resides in the gut. If you do have leaky gut, you need to treat that before doing methylation or your magnesium and/or potassium will start leaking out at a high rate and this can become dangerous (this is where I'm at in my treatment right now).
    =-=-==-=-=-

    So a complete program would be something like this - check for leaky gut with an intestinal permeability test or do a stool test to see if you have any gut pathogens or imbalances. If so, then do a 4R gut rebuilding program.

    Then you can do a pretty straightforward methylation program such as Rich Vank's or Yasko's simplified methylation protocols. Or you can simply do a good B complex with methylfolate and not folic acid, some TMG for the BHMT pathway and then a sublingual B12 of the forms I mentioned above. The B12 has to be sublingual or an injection to bypass the gut. The B12 contained in the B complex or multivitamin will only absorb about 2% so it's almost worthless.
    Ben Lynch via Seekinghealth.com makes some good vitamins with active ingredients and the least amount of cheap fillers.

    I like liquid B12 drops because I often need to subdivide things into very tiny amounts, so that works better for me than a lozenge you suck on. Yasko sells liquid B12 drops in all three forms on her website holisticheal.com.

    =-==-=-=
    For the detox SNPs, the general recommendation is to eat your veggies and fruits and avoid toxins. For CYP1B1 you can do DIM or IC3 to help with the estrogen dominance.

    Doing methylation will help with creating more glutathione for those GST SNPs. Taking glutathione as a supplement may or may not be helpful, and may not be tolerated.
    =-==-=-=

    There may be other environmental things in the mix such as toxic metals. Mercury and lead are very common ones to have due to mercury fillings and general pollution (or leaded gasoline and paints if you're old enough). These can gum up methylation even if you don't have MTHFR type SNPs. Gut pathogens can also hold onto metals, which is another reason to look at the gut. When you start doing methylation supps any metals that you have will start to detox, and you may start to feel worse. If this happens reduce the supps to a level you can tolerate.

    Watch the Methylation Made Easy videos for more info. I also have a bunch of links in my signature which should be helpful.
     
  8. Koni

    Koni

    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
    Thank you all for your comments. Really quick, as I digest all this material:

    -I was negative for leaky gut when tested.
    -I do have positive tests for elevated mercury and lead (Genova NutrEval and Hair Analysis). No current mercury fillings.
    -I'm awaiting Methylation Pathways testing results (which I'll post) to evaluate what performance actually is
    -My serum B12 has been quite high the last several years. Serum MMA is low, indicating that B12 is likely OK.
    -I have high DHEA. Chronically low T, low DHT --- none of the propecia / hormone - related boards can really help here, we've all been around in circles a million times. (on this note, the google results for finasteride and leaky gut are likely just one of the zillion theories PFSers have posted)

    So...in essence, you're suggestion is to do basic methylation....I've already acquired Solgar Folate and Enzymatic Therapy B12 (methyl). I'm contemplating doing a Wilson (Mineral/Nutritional Balancing) program, complete with coffee enemas and sauna therapy which has helped a couple of PFSers. I'm looking to support the program with methylation as dictated by the results.

    Thanks!
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page