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Liver Support?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Was reading this post by taroki and have a lot of the same issues recently.

    I started methylation a few times which seemed to help but the last went downhill. Found some things that helped temporarily but seems the more I think I know the less I know :(

    Right now I am trying to help my liver which I believe is in need. I have Slow caffeine clearance which this article says is due to slow Phase 1 activity.

    Yesterday I took some things to help Phase 1 and Phase2: Vit C 500mg, Magnesium Glycinate, Vit A complex, E complex, Zinc, Milk Thistle and Selenium. Some Glycine and Taurine. 1 Calcium D-Gkucarate and I believe a Multi Vit.

    This morning felt like death. Got up and took a ibuprofen and a Milk Thistle, About 15 minutes felt pretty good and returned to sleep. An hour later woke look just the ibuprofen and no so good. So about 20 mins after that took another Milk Thistle and felt good enough to go back to sleep.

    I have had some recent stress which had made symptoms worse and seem to be experiencing a lot more food allergies lately.

    Seem to experience heightened gut reaction (diarrhea) to aerobic exercise, sunlight, yogurt, vitamin D.
    and a lesser gut reaction (feeling yucky) to just about any food other than organic veggies.

    Wondering what I can take (with my SNP profile esp) that would gently support the liver. I'm not sure if supporting phase 1 or 2 only or both should be good.

    I feel like I'm starting this entire 10 year stretch of CFS all over again. I feel like I know nothing... :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan I've had excellent results with herb Chanca Piedra for liver/gb support. I started it when I was having severe gb pains. pain stopped almost immediately. I now use 1 daily (AOR brand, iherb) Coffee enemas are also an excellent way to detox and support liver. I've found w/ MAO++ need to have histamine support following enemas, there seems to be a big release of histamines. (rutin, royal jelly, quercetin) Also, Dietrich Klinghardt, MD has extensive detox protocols. Well, I guess many people have detox protocols. Anyway, I'll link a fascinating vid, and the powerpoint docs he used, which lists the detox elements. cheers, ahmo

    Oh...are you eating low histamine?

    http://www.mygutsy.com/the-ultimate-liver-detox-coffee-enemas/
    http://www.sawilsons.com/library.htm

    Klinghardt: Autism, Lyme, Pyroluria
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-z3kRDYcvhA

    Short Version (36pg) Pyroluria/Lyme protocol. From Powerpoint doc used during Klinghardt presentation: Lyme Induced Autism
    http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/1_KlinghardtKPU_09_PX.pdf
     
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  3. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi @sregan :)

    I have issues with liver detox too. I will share from my experiences, maybe there might be something to help you too...

    If I took these, I would definitely feel like crap too. I'm really sensitive to sulphur agents (so Milk Thistle is out), had to go off Calcium Glucarate, and can't really tolerate selenium too much right now.

    I have discovered limonene:

    from: https://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/metabolic_detoxification_02.htm

    Basically there are 5 ways in my research to aide "detox;"
    a) liver/gallbaldder flushing from agents that cause increased bile secretion. My favorite gentle one for this is ginger. I drink ginger & lemon tea all the time.

    b) stimulation of phase 1 or phase 2 detox like limonene, use of citrus, or Calcium Glucarate - via the glucuronidation pathway. Another thing that I have used is citrus bioflavonoids for a long time. You have to be careful with Calcium G though. It can affect thyroid function negatively.

    c) replacement of some missing amino acids to support liver function in general like glycine and taurine mentioned above. I have had the worst success with this approach, as often these amino acids have other functions in the body too, & they tend to unbalance my neurotransmitters (I'm MAO+/+ too).

    d) Mineral balancing. Introduction of certain minerals will encourage the excretion of minerals via urine that are harmful for the body. Zinc opposes copper for example.

    e) chelation: different substances have certain qualities that cause the body to release certain substances. Like zeolite, sulphur agents like chlorella, or cilantro. As well vitamin C is known to help in chelation of copper.

    Vitamin C is a nice one though, but I would be wary of too large of doses. It is used as an alternative therapy when there has been liver damage & is really helpful in promoting liver regeneration. But in my experience, at high doses, & when I was doing IV vitamin C treatments it really caused lots of toxic dumping, which would really unbalance me for some time & cause ++fatigue.

    I have found that the key to detox is to find a pace that your body can tolerate. Some of the harsher approaches like chelation should only be done if the body is more strong. Mineral Balancing is a more of a gentler approach that I'm taking (Nutritional Balancing - Dr. Wilson's stuff), but even so, I'm dumping & have days that I feel worse than others.

    I find on days that I'm feeling badly I have to decide if it is because I have overdetoxed, or need more help with elimination. I have been using celery to promote diuresis because I get bloated really easily (water retention), sometimes I need to promote urinary elimination. Some days when it literally feels like the toxins are bumping around inside me & I feel more agitated than fatigued I know I need to take more limonene. I just discovered this morning that limonene + a little DIM (for estrogen) is tooo much at once. And I was +++crabby for awhile.

    The other thing that I recently clued in to was to look at fibre in diet & make sure I'm getting enough. Apparently it helps with the absorption and elimination of toxins in the gut.

    Lastly, I have found that isolation from as many toxins as possible is best. I recently bought a Brita filter & only drink filtered water as much as possible. One of my naturopaths recommended getting a filter for the shower, as one can get exposed to toxic metals in the shower water, and to drink reverse osmosis water instead. I switched to a natural deorderant, and am slowly switching everything else over too.

    I also have to only eat organic veggies. I had a terrible reaction not too long ago to inorganic peppers. Yikes. So fatigued. I only eat grassfed, "clean"meats (farm-raised - no drugs), and eat an otherwise paleo diet - nothing artificial, everything freshly prepared as possible.

    This could be a dumping reaction, or it could just be exacerbation of IBS like symptoms if that is your baseline. I know when I first started to get sick that was my first symptom of IBS was diarrhea to aerobic exercise. Either way, I can't recall if you have addressed gut pathogens yet or not (i.e. stool test). This was a *BIG* part of my healing journey.

    I would say both. That's what I do. We both have CYP mutations. I don't know much about these other ones you have: GSTP1 I105V, NAT2 I114T, NAT2 R197Q, NAT2 K268R

    I agree with the suggestion of histamine. For several months I needed to eat a low histamine diet.
    I can now eat a bit more histamine, but I still have to be careful. I can't really eat histamine releasers like banana or pineapple.

    On a side note, do you have mercury fillings? My food sensitivity and sensitivity to methylation supports decreased dramatically after I got mine safely removed. It took about 8 months.

    All the best, S
     
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  4. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    You may be on to something here...Yesterday I noticed the "Mast Cell Activation" stuff. When I looked at the symptoms to MSAD I was curiously surprised to find "sunlight" which is definitely a trigger for me, also alcohol, temperature changes, spicy foods seem to make me worse.

    Of the symptoms one that I have is spleen enlargement, also palpitations, chest pain, diarrhea, weakness, fatigue.

    I am definitely experiencing heightened inflammation for whatever reason the last few months which seems to be increasing.

    From what little reading I've just done it seems to connect a lot of my puzzle pieces as much or more than any other disorder this far.
     
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  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to write such a comprehensive post!

    I just saw something about this a couple of days ago: "Limonene's protective effects are probably due to the fact that it is a strong inducer of both phase I and phase II detoxification enzymes that neutralize carcinogens."

    from: http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html

    Good to know that!

    What has helped me a lot lately is taking "Detoxifiber" from Garden of Life with dinner. Was sleeping better and it is imperative to bind gut toxins to keep your body from reabsorbing them. Trick is not to bind to many things you need from the gut or supplement these (Like B3 and Tyro (for Thyroid)) when you need to.

    No, I have shy'd away from testing but now think I might do some. Where do you get the test, does it go through your doctor?

    Hmm.. I've been eating a banana every morning. Wonder if that's been hurting me...


    I did, and just had the last 2 removed over a year ago from a founding dentist of the IAOMT. My symptoms seem to have heightened since then. Not sure if I have a long mercury dump happening...I had 10-12 fillings at my peak. I was just reminded that the FDA raised the allowable levels of Glyphosate in food last summer. Might also be something that has contributed to my condition. Best to go as organic as possible...
     
  6. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Here's a big question I need to find the answer to... Does histamine cause Brain Fog? I assumed my Gi issues after eating certain foods and associated Brain Fog were due to Lyme Die off. Now I'm wondering....

    Last night I took 1 zyrtek and 1 cimetidine as recommended somewhere ("Dr. Afrin recommends first trying a cocktail of an H1 blocker, an H2 blocker, a benzo (they act as mast cell stabilizers) and aspirin if tolerated because mast cells also release prostaglandins."). I've noticed I always seem to sleep better if I take an anti-histamine before bed. I think it usually wipes me out too much so I don't take it regularly.

    I also took adrenal supps to address the stress (small amt of licorice, B5, and a little PABA and Pantethine) and not eating bananas. I'm feeling somewhat better today.

    Going to look into altering my diet to reduce histamines and also look into the Diamine Oxidase Enzyme supplements as well as other things that might help like Neuropotek mentioned here and D-limonene along with other liver support supps.

    Not sure where methylation fits into all this. Should I be taking at least a B12 or start taking minimal b12 and Folate at this point?
     
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  7. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Those with CYP1A2 gene polymorphism should actually avoid ALL Phase I inducers. Here's a link to show that it is related to porphyria.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11153915

    One need not be diagnosed with porphyria for this to be true. Foods containing sulforaphane also can cause problems. Limonene is on the list of phase I detox inducers, for what it's worth. You can trial it, and it might make you feel better for awhile, but just keep your eyes open as to it causing a porphyrin buildup. I can expand on the explanation if you like, or you can look up porphyria. Secondary porphyria is more commonly the issue, and coincidentally has a lot in common with undermethylation. (mercury or heavy metal toxicity, hormones, pathogen, can't think of the other one right now).

    Coincidentally, also, is that porphyria has a lot of symptoms of B2 deficiency, which does seem to be more common here than realized due to focus on B12 and folate.

    I use herbal tinctures from www.sensiblehealth.com. She makes sure there is nothing estrogenic in her tinctures.



    I am still trying to figure out the relationship between B12 and/or folate and histamines.

    Have you seen this?

    http://thelowhistaminechef.com/dr-janice-joneja-histamine-intolerance-interview-pt2/
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
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  8. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    One thought from the youtube link above is that Dr. Joneja said that histamines are released because of infection. I am wondering if a latent SIBO could be causing excess histamines.

    Another thought is that I saw a post by Rich Vank mentioning an immune system imbalance, with a shift towards Th2. A shift towards Th2 would cause one to be overly allergic, (correct me if I'm wrong about that, somebody), which could be another source of extra histamines.

    The two above thoughts are usually simultaneous. A switch to Th2 leaves Th1 underachieving, causing pathogen overgrowth and at the same time causing one to be overly allergic.

    Balancing the immune system might help the problem.
     
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  9. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @sregan

    I found with the methylations supports that timing was key. It may be useful to reduce your histamine reactions a bit more, because I found that at first I had to be really careful about titrating my dosages up or the histamine reactions would increase dramatically. But overall, once I broke through that tough phase, then methylation has almost solved all my histamine issues. Other than - I still notice small reactions with certain foods like the bananas and fish.

    Thanks for the tip on the fibre, I think the ingredients are a bit too complicated right now for me, because I have to eat low copper as part of this nutritional balancing (no chia), & alfalfa is high sulphur I think which is a no, no, for me right now :(

    @Violeta thanks for the tip about porphyrin buildup. I did a quick google, but this is kind of over my head.

    It didn't seem related to CYP1B1 snps from what I seen... do you know much about these ones? I'm just learning... S:)
     
  10. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    @sregan
    re: brain fog - histamine connection...

    for me, increased histamine always acts as a stimulant. I get super agitated. Then often afterwards I would crash (huge increase in fatigue). I think the crash is related to my adrenal fatigue.

    I used antihistamines for a long time too to combat my insomnia, & it was actually encouraged by my naturopath at the time... it's one of the common symptoms of high histamine.

    I did find however, that I think I was reliant on the stimulant factor from the high histamine foods for energy for some time, and when I removed them that there was a period where I felt less mentally alert.

    S
     
  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Star-Anise, I'm not sure about CYP 1B1 being related to porphyria. I tried googling it and it's amazing how difficult it is to pull up the exact information. Even when I see CYP 1B1 ......porphyria cutanea tarda in the link info, when I pull it up it's not in the text.

    I did see that CYP 1B1 can be related to congenital glaucoma, which is interesting. My husband has glaucoma.

    I have started a low histamine diet a couple of days ago, and I do agree that it can make you very tired. If you don't have anything pressing, it is a good feeling, actually. And I had been thinking that histamines must be in some way addictive. Try cutting them out, you might find yourself automatically sabotaging the effort by being drawn to a different high histamine food. It's really strange the way the body knows which food has what it wants.

    I am going to try reducing copper foods, too.
     
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  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan Yes, histamines can cause brain fog. I found lowhistaminechef interview linked by Violeta fascinating. She says that H1/2 anti-histamines shouldn't be used prophylactically, they're ineffective. I've had terrific results from rutin, royal jelly, and quercetin. My histamine outbreaks are now quietened, after a decade and more of near-constant histamine responses. And those were only the ones of which I was aware, not the brain symptoms. I'm linking 2 excellent vids from mast cell expert Dr. Theoharides.

    Re Th1/2...I'd read a bit about this issue. I'm hypothyroid, take T3. When I became aware of this, I had some thymus glandular on hand for my husband. I started taking this, and now use it daily. When I'm detoxxing, I self-test for taking more of it following the enemas. Seems to be working great. See link for article re there is more than TH1/TH2 the next-to-last link here. This is why I chose to add thymus, rather than seeking some other way of balancing. The final article is a more standard explanation re TH1/2

    Also linking a histamine article someone else posted yesterday, I haven't yet read it.

    ‘Brain Allergy’ and ASD - T. Theoharides, MD, PhD‬
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9QbZp3WcC1Q


    Mastocytosis with Theoharis C. Theoharides, MS, PhD, MD, FAA‬
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CplxXGpFeKQ

    The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044

    http://wellnessalternatives-stl.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/am-i-th1-or-th2.html Am I Th1 or Th2"

    http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/182243/Hashi-patients--Are-you-TH1-or-TH2-dominant
     
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  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @ahmo, the medhelp link is very interesting. I've read most of that before, but I have NEVER seen the simple test of drinking green tea one day, and the Echinacea tea the next day to see if you are Th1 or Th2!!! I love it!!!

    Have you done that test? I was drinking green tea yesterday and today. I couldn't fall asleep last night, and had a hard time getting going this morning, also feeling grouchy, didn't feel like talking. So I'll try the Echinacea tea tomorrow. I am almost certain I am Th2, so I shouldn't have been drinking the green tea, anyway.

    The wellness alternatives link didn't work, but I'll try looking for the BlogSpot.

    Thanks again

    PS: I tried drinking a cup of Echinacea tea and my itching got worse and I flushed. I quick took some quercetin and it helped pretty quickly. Echinacea might not be the best choice for a probe because it can be allergenic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  15. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    These are very good links ahmo, thank you. I watched the top video "Brain Allergy", was amazed how he ties everything together so nicely.

    The article "The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance" was excellent. Will get to the others as time permits.
     
  16. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I got my Swanson DAO Enzyme in the mail yesterday and have had enough significant response to report it back.

    Took with lunch and 10 minutes after eating it struck me that I'm feeling ok. No after meal drowsyness and no brain fog. Something that just happens that I hadn't really noticed anymore was not there.

    About 3 hours later I had a couple handfuls of non salted Kirkland mixed nuts (high histamine and histamine liberator) without the enzyme. About 20 minutes later my spleen area was giving a lot of pressure and I felt ill. I took some vitamin C and Quercetin, an ibuprofen and some aspirin. Took another 30 minutes till I started feeling some relief.

    Never had that kind of reaction from a small amount of food like that. Was wondering if the DAO enzyme might have processed some histamine that was stored up in the liver and caused me to feel ill. Like there might be an adjustment period to using the DAO enzyme.

    Took the second enzyme 10 minute before dinner. Again after eating sitting the couch I am feeling good, alert and have energy. Not in the typical food coma. This time I didn't eat anything after.

    It's too early to tell but I'm feeling very positive about this stuff.

    Now I'm wondering: how did I become DAO deficient (answer is probably in those articles and videos). The video mentioned it could be due to my Mercury burden I believe I have from Childhood. The video mentioned the role of stress and how it can serve as a trigger. Wondering if that starts a "cycle" that ends up perpetuating itself. Recent stress has made things much worse for me. I can understand.

    Also wondering where to go with Liver support or if handling the histamine will take care of that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
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  17. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I've ordered some Rutin and Royal Jelly. I am having a positive response to the DAO enzyme but it doesn't seem to cover everything I eat (maybe glutin intolerance also?). I was out in the sun for a few hours yesterday not sure if that may have caused a histamine burst.

    I believe the DAO enzyme only helps ingested food? Not sure.

    I'm gonna check out the Chanca Piedra and Limonene for Liver and saw mentioned mangosteen and something called Neuro potek for histamine control.

    Update: Just took a look at Neuro Potek. Contains Luteolin, Quercetin and Rutin. Swanson has a Luteolin and Rutin for $10 .

    I believe this is what I ordered from Swanson last week.

    Luteolin is what is mentioned in this video near the end as a substance that can halt the Mast Cell reaction.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan
    Your MAO++ indicates a strong liklihood you'll have histamine issues. My understanding is that, as you question, DAO only acts on the food you're eating, tho you may have gotten some further benefit to liver, as you noticed. And if you're eating gluten, you should definitely give yourself a trial without it. Thanks for the Swanson luteolin tip. RE continued liver support, I can highly recommend coffee enemas. But, I'm not employed, the enema routine I'm now on, for comprehensive detox, not only liver support, is like having a full time job! :whistle:

    Here's an interesting new article from lowhistaminechef. Someone in the comments section of this article recommends mangosteen. I'm going to give this a try. cheers, ahmo http://thelowhistaminechef.com/wondering-why-you-react-to-everything-you-eat/
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  19. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I found an article (PDF) about histadelia (high histamine) being helped by B3 and C. I have to link to it through this page: http://www.encognitive.com/node/12241

    I found this because of taking B3 this morning for symptoms that I thought might have been brought on because of seasonal allergies and then getting some relief.

    I don't think one has to necessarily have the psychological histadelia symptoms to benefit from the information about B3 and C helping to lower total body histamine levels.

    However, this makes me wonder if the psychological symptoms of Parkinson's are related to B3 deficiency.

    I can't copy and paste from a PDF, but I'll be back to give a summary.

    It's long and rather complicated, if anyone is interested, please follow the link.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @sregan, I haven't watched the video about causes of DAO deficiency, but I have read that a deficiency of B6 or copper can be one of the causes.

    Copper deficiency can be caused by copper being biounavailable and then stored in organs such as the liver. That's caused by inadequate ceruloplasma, the protein carrier of copper. In that case, taking copper isn't a good idea. Dog Person in the B2 I love You thread said that B2 can help the stored copper to be released. Maybe that helps it to be used by the body, too, I don't know.

    I think stress can be a cause of low copper, so maybe you already realize about that from the video. If so, sorry, I'll watch it later.

    I actually did watch that video. I don't think Dr. Theo mentions B6 and copper being necessary for DAO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014

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