Can methylation support help heal out of a mitochondrial crash or is it too strenuous?

[sueami]

I'm bed bound, after crashing myself twice by trying to increase my activity level way too much when I started feeling better in this crash, which has been going on since Christmas. I now have elevated HR when I am upright and am working to normalize my K levels, which are quite low.

But I have noticed something that makes me think that I never fully got methylation running, that I was using the wrong form of carnitine. I started taking Alcar for mito support in the last month and I've had some strong brightening and even certain symptom improvements (returned libido and clearing complexion) even as I have been too exhausted to be upright for long.

I am wondering if, once I get potassium levels up, I should start titrating up on Alcar. I currently take and feel helped by 1 mg mb12 shots and an adb/mb12 blend oil and to a less noticeable extent 800-1200 mcg of mfolate and lcf.

Has anyone used methylation support to heal out of a clearly mitochondrial crash?

Can methylation even do that, or are its effects for other systems?

Sue

 

[ahmo]

@sueami I can't answer your methylation question. But I've been again reviewing Martin Pall's website detailing his theory that a problem Nitricic Oxide Cycle is at the heart of a whole class of illnesses, which he classifies as the Tenth Paradigm of illness. ALCAR is one of the things he specifies to help reduce peroxynitrite. I've added it a couple months ago. Not always, and not as part of my methylation protocol. But I self-test for it, and am testing + and adding it when I have a certain group of symptoms.

I spent a long time tracing these symptoms, initially understanding them as ammonia. When I went deeper into Pall's work, I stopped attempting to differentiate ammonia and peroxy. I now classify this symptom cluster as my crashy symptoms. And in addition to rest, I've been adding in Pall's recommendations to keep me looking over the crash abyss, but not toppling over into it. I'm convinced that this NO/ONOO- mechanism is core to my health. I've mended everything available to me, including my current Candida/microbial intensive purge. What's left seems to be NO/ONOO-.

I'm pasting in my edited list of supplements Pall suggests to get to the heart of this syndrome. On his site he lists things they've found useful, then tables listing those things in protocols of 5 CFS experts. If you go to that page, just know that all the items in the particular protocols have already been included in his first list, so you don't need to go through all of them.

I hope this is not TMI!!

He's also come to believe sauna is a key factor. If you have that possibility, it seems fairly frequent sauna is needed. In part, all of these things raise the BH4 level, which appears, to me, to be at the very core of the cycle and theory. I don't think you need to know the biochemistry or mechanics to be able to work with this paradigm.

Learning about this mechanism and approach has coincided with my body requesting very large amounts of carrots, raw. (not cooking, because trying to not feed the beasties). It turns out that carrots are both anti-microbial, and a potent antioxidant. I've added resveratrol, first as red wine form only, now with a combo Japanese knotweed/red wine. And stronger astaxanthine as antioxidant. Antioxidant is the operative goal here.

He mentions hydroxyB12 and, in the vid, AdB12. The AdB12 corresponds to the CArmen Wheatley paper, The Gorilla in the Room that Fred quotes, re ATP. I don't have hydroxy, so have also used an occasional AdB12 when feeling the symptoms.

He mentions in the vid that the Gamma form of Vit E is preferably, so I've switched from the E succinate as suggested by Yasko

Also, in case you feel like watching, here's his vid explaining the whole thing. 2 hours, he speaks to slides w/ printed info. So you can stop/start it. He covers ME initially, then other diseases. Last 20" is supplements. March 2014. As I look through the list pasted here, my feeling is that he's added things into the list on the vid, but maybe not.

I hope you're feeling much better soon Sue.

Martin Pall vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...yer_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=6A7r1gemjto

http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/therapy.htm Below taken from the varied protocols quoted by Pall:

flavonoids, including “bioflavonoids,” olive leaf extract, organic botanicals, hawthorn extract

Flavonoids (flavones, rutin, hesperetin and others)

Grape seed extract (flavonoid)

Four different flavonoid sources: Ginkgo biloba extract, cranberry extract, silymarin, and bilberry extract

GABA agonists—GABA acts as an inhibitory neurotransmitter to lower NMDA activity—these include the drug neurotin (gabapentin)

Histamine blockers—mast cells which release histamine are activated by both nitric oxide and vanilloid stimulation (Chapter 7) and may therefore be part of the cycle mechanism

Spirulina—blue-green alga is a concentrated antioxidant source

Artichoke extract—as flavonoid source?

Carotenoids (alpha-carotene, bixin, zeaxanthin and lutein)-lipid (fat) soluble peroxynitrite scavengers

Other phosphatidyl polyunsaturated lipids—this and the phosphatidyl choline are predicted to help restore the oxidatively damaged mitochondrial inner membrane

Zinc—antioxidant properties and copper/zinc superoxide dysmutase precursor

Acetyl-L-carnitine—important for restoring mitochondrial function

Vitamin B6—balance glutamate and GABA levels, lowers excitotoxicity

Riboflavin 5’-phosphate; Vitamin B6 in the form of pyridoxal phosphate

a-Lipoic acid

Valine and isoleucine—branched chain amino acids known to be involved in energy metabolism in mitochondria, and may be expected,therefore, to stimulate energy metabolism; modest levels may also lower excitotoxicity

 

[ahmo]

I've just remembered, in direct response to the question re methylation: the first item in Pall's list of supps on the vid is MTHF. So in addition to the antioxidants, which were my main interest because my methylation support is pretty solid, he names MTHF, AdB12, HydroxyB12, and ALCAR. I guess that means the answer to your actual question is Yes.

 

[sueami]

oh i love you @ahmo. ty for all this. could u name or link the astaxanthin and resveratrol u are trying?

i am on day 1 of myhills d ribose protocol. 15 g a day over six doses. it works great u til the ribose wears off, theb im back to utter exhaustinon. will take a week or two before enoih mitis are back online for the energy to start holding. i want to add antioxes too speed that up.

 

[ahmo]

Hi sue. I started with a grape-only resveratrol, then tried another w/ both Japanese knotweed + grape. My body seems to like the combo better. I read somewhere that it's absorbed best sublingually, my body says yes to this, that's what I now do. I'll link them both. Plus adding a couple other formulas that I was looking at. I think the Gaia combo ends up as reasonable a price as any of the others, but I'm a terrible mathematician. I've searched thorough Astax several times, started with the Healthy Origins at a lower dose, now use this triple strength.

Sample size Astaxanthin: http://www.iherb.com/Healthy-Origin...althy origins astaxanthin&rc=971&sr=null&ic=3

Triple strength (12 mg)
http://www.iherb.com/Healthy-Origin...althy origins astaxanthin&rc=971&sr=null&ic=4



This was my first Resveratrol. Red wine only. Must be the best value. I'm now alternating w/ the Gaia. I can never recall my research process once I make a choice. But I would have spent a couple hours....

http://www.iherb.com/Gaia-Herbs-Resveratrol-150-50-Vegetarian-Liquid-Phyto-Caps/18798


http://www.iherb.com/Paradise-Herbs-Resveratrol-60-Veggie-Caps/4232


This one includes pine bark. I think my body doesn't like pine bark so much, I'll have to test against some I have put away:
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-G...sc=0&lc=en-US&w=knotweed&rc=110&sr=null&ic=23

This one is Japanese knotweed only (polygonum):
http://www.iherb.com/Cardiovascular...isc=0&lc=en-US&w=knotweed&rc=110&sr=null&ic=2

 

[ahmo]

@sueami OK, here's Pall's whole list, w/o my editing. You might find other things here helpful. The phrases following each is whether there is or is not clinical data to support it. Sorry about the formatting...

http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/therapy.htm
O/ONOO- Cycle Summary of Individual Agents or Classes of Agents

Agent or Class of Agents

Clinical Trial Data or Clinical Observation/Anecdotal Reports

Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)

Clinical Trial Data

Tocopherols/Tocotrienols

Anecdotal Reports

Selenium

None

Carotenoids

None

Flavonoids

Clinical Trial Data

Reductive stress relieving agents

Clinical Trial Data

Mitochondrial regeneration agents

Clinical Trial Data

L-Carnitine/Acetyl-L-carnitine

Clinical Trial Data

Hydroxocobalamin/B12

Clinical Trial Data

Folic acid

Clinical Trial Data

Vitamin B6/pyridoxal phosphate

Anecdotal Reports

Riboflavin

None

Other B vitamins

None

Glutathione/glutathione precursors

Clinical Observations

a-Lipoic acid

None

Magnesium

Clinical Trial Data

SOD minerals/zinc,manganese, copper

None

NMDA antagonists

Clinical Trial Data

Riluzole

None

Taurine

None

Inosine/uric acid

None

Long chain omega-3 fatty acids

Clinical Trial Data

Agents that lower NF-kB activity

Anecdotal Reports

Curcumin

None

Algal supplements

Clinical Trial Data

Hyperbaric oxygen

Clinical Trial Data

Minocycline and Other Tetracyclines

Clinical Observations

Creatine

None

Lowered vanilloid activity

None

Carnosine

None

TRH

Clinical Observation

D-ribose

Clinical Trial Data

Ecklonia cava extract

Clinical Trial Data



The mechanisms predicting that these agents may be expected to down-regulate NO/ONOO- cycle biochemistry are presented in my book, as are the clinical trial, clinical observation and anecdotal evidence relating to one or more of these multisystem illnesses.



One important caution: To be effective, these various treatments require, in my view, that individuals avoid stressors that may be expected to up-regulate NO/ONOO- cycle biochemistry. Those include:



Chemical exposure in MCS patients

Food antigens in those who have developed food allergies

Excitotoxins such as MSG and aspartame that may be expected to increase NMDA activity

Excessive exercise leading to post-exertional malaise in CFS patients

Psychological stress, especially in PTSD patients

And some info re Resveratrol. Kimsie was talking about sirtuins, which made me go looking further and came up w/ this.

Aging occurs when older cells cannot effectively and perfectly reproduce the DNA in new cells. Resveratrol controls a gene by deacetylation, which activates the sirtuin gene thus affecting longevity.

http://www.sirtuins.info/gene-activators.html

Sirtuins are a family of genes, found in mammals and labelled as SIRT1 to SIRT7. They increase the efficiency of an organism to fight stress like excess heat or lack of food maintaining its power of natural defence. They maximise the chances of survival of an organism. They can also increase their longevity and health if they remain activated for a longer time. They are also called longevity genes because they banish diseases causing old age.

Sirtuins can be activated in two ways:

• By restricting calorie intake
• By using supplements like Resveratrol

By the intake of highly absorbable nutrients, cell repair can be stimulated and supported, and mitochondrial function can be optimised. Research has given us enough evidence that the interaction between specialised gene receptors and nutritional supplements can be modified by gene expression.

Resveratrol

Resveratrol functions as sirtuin activator resulting in anti-aging. Amazing facts about its effects on Bacterial Infection, Free Radicals, Alzheimer�s Disease, Inflammation, Viral infection, Mitochondrial Activation, Fat Metabolism, Cardiovascular System, High Cholestrol, Age Reversal and Longevity, Hypertension and Type 2 Diabetes have been revealed by various scientific research and discoveries.

The Working of Resveratrol

Mitochondria which are like little furnaces in our cells, burn out the fats and nutrients into energy. With age this metabolism slows down and the mitochondria starts deteriorating. Resveratrol, activates SIRT1 a special enzyme to create mitochondria. This in return maintains the blood pressure and blood sugar, increases energy and protects the liver, heart and circulatory system as it is an effective antioxidant.

During the past decade, sirtuins have also been considered of great importance in drug management. Sirtuins gene activators are enzymes which play a very vital role in gene activation of all organisms ranging from Prokaryotes to humans. Sirtuin modulation is very beneficial for neurodegenerative diseases, diabetes and cancer, which are associated with aging. Some class of sirtuins, when activated can prove beneficial, while others which act as inhibitors can offer various options for treatment.

There are a variety of sirtuins gene activators. When the SIRT1 gene is activated, it produces proteins which protect the cells from degenerative diseases and premature aging by curbing oxidative stress and inflammation. When we have a low calorie diet, the gene which acts as a defence mechanism is activated, giving the cells that extra protection,when it is needed the most. Research has proved that animals which are kept on low calorie restricted diet have an enhanced lifespan of 40% when compared to their counterparts, which have no calorie restrictions. Resveratrol plays a very important role in calorie restriction. The higher the SIRT1 level, the slower is the process of aging, which is a key to healthy life.

And a thread re knotweed:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...urce-for-japanese-knotweed.31457/#post-543810 Re knotweed

What makes Knotweed so valuable when it comes to treating Lyme disease is that it not only inhibits the spirochetes, it is also markedly anti-inflammatory, reducing joint pain, swelling and fever. The anti-inflammatory effect helps to regulate the immune system and prevents it from being over burdened; its modulating effect makes it useful for many autoimmune ailments. Knotweed supports the central nervous system and protects the heart, making it especially valuable in the treatment of Lyme-related carditis. Lyme disease affects more than the joints; symptoms can range from pronounced fatigue, fever and aches to foggy thinking, memory lapses, muscular spasms, rashes and vision problems. The spirochetes that cause Lyme make a meal of collagen tissue, and their favorite restaurants include your joints, skin, eyes and brain. Knotweed has a strong ability to protect those tender areas, stimulating microcirculation and directing other herbs to otherwise difficult to treat regions of the body.



The constituents in Knotweed are also able to cross the blood brain barrier (BBB), protecting delicate cerebral tissue and harmonizing blood flow. Regular supplementation of Polygonum cuspidatum during or after an active infection will help sharpen mental function and relieve pain throughout the body. During effective treatment of Lyme disease, patients frequently experience what is known as a Herxheimer reaction. A “Herx” response is a healing crisis of exacerbated overall symptoms; fevers spike, joint pain becomes more pronounced, fatigue may increase –basically the patient feels absolutely awful.



The reason for the aggravated symptoms is a massive die-off of the pathogenic spirochetes creating a high volume of toxicity in the blood. Believe it or not, this is a good sign:...



...I have had to come off it having taken 9 capsules daily for 4 months. Turns out it is a potent vasodilator and therefore it has given me horrendous migraines. Cats Claw is the same so the 2 together made me feel suicidal.



Just a warning that Japanese knotweed contains emodin, which can cause vomiting and other digestive problems. I refer to it http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-do-you-buy-it-from.27768/page-2#post-486053, and there are other posts mentioning it too.

 

[sueami]

this has been so helpful. ty soso much. i had to stop taking my dribose this am because it is derived from corn and i was having a food reax to it. waiting for the corn free version to arrive in the mail. called all over town trying to find it locally. in the meantime i will keep loadi g the antioxes to keep making forward progress.


i have gotten my delectrolytes balanced and meditated my way throughand out of a huge panic that was waking me up multiple ti.es a night in full fear, so that was a huge relief.

still completely bedbiubd but feel less miserable. just deep exhaustion. hopeful that the d ribose will let me heal mitos faster than i would at this lvl of functioning.

 

[ahmo]

@sueami hoping you continue feeling better day by day.

 

[pogoman]

Along with MTHFR I have some unknown mito related myopathy and exercise intolerance that has been helped by various supplements.
You might try regular L-carnitine and choline along with ALCAR.
Those and optionally with caffeine are used by body builders and when researching I saw studies that say they cell energy problems.
Also mito related are coq10 and riboflavin, they are used as treatments for some types of mitochondrial diseases.
One other supplement is medium chain triglyceride oil. aka MCT oil.
There are some diseases known as fatty acid oxidation disorders that MCT oil will help.
But it can raise your lipids if you do not have FAO issues.