What are 'Psychological Processes"?

[A.B.]

The problem I see is that it is pretty clear that harmful mental habits have negative effects on biology. This is pretty clear by now to doctors and researchers as well.

Name one study that can demonstrate that there is at least one illness caused by "harmful mental habits".

Of course you won't be able to find such a study. At best some brief and mild changes when people are subject to frightening images or the like. Nothing that would pass as actual illness.

It would also be educational for you to read some material from the 50's, where the idea that mental state was cause of illness was more popular. Illnesses considered psychosomatic were rheumatoid arthritis, autoimmune thyroid disease, multiple sclerosis, peptic ulcer, and many, many others. It is humbling to read this material because the researchers genuinely believed they could see personality flaws in these patients, and spent a lot of time and effort coming up with elaborate explanations for how these flaws translated into illness. It also makes you realize how much damage this thinking has done. People with real suffering were sent to the psychoanalyst. That included people with life threatening illnesses such as asthma.

Edit: here is the abstract of one such study written in 1951:

Twenty-five women with peptic ulcers were studied from the psychosomatic point of view. All exhibited profound and overt personality disorders. The majority had been rejected by the mother and turned to the father for support. Ulcer symptoms were precipitated when the supporting figure failed them. Oral aggressive feelings played an important role and were often equated with denial of femininity. This group of women with peptic ulcers had a much higher incidence of overt personality disturbances than the majority of a comparative group of men peptic ulcer patients previously studied, although frustration of dependent wishes was equally important in both groups. The shift in the sex ratio of peptic ulcer during the past 50 years suggests that cultural factors may play a role in the development of this disease.

http://journals.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=144588

 

[cmt12]

i disagree. chronic illness makes you horribly introspective because you have got nothing to do, you become insecure and start questioning your persona, you are isolated. in fact i think it makes you overanalyse your life. when you are healthy you just live without thinking too much about it. it's when things are not going well you start questioning yourself and your life. at least that's my experience. i don't think we lack insight, most healthy people do because they don't need it.

The insecurity, self doubt, over analyzing - those are all automatic processes that are side effects of pain and illness. They are not side effects of introspection.

You may think they are caused by introspection because you became aware of them through introspection. But this is a lack of clarity (due to a lack of introspection) that is remedied by deeper introspection.

Think about it, why would you voluntarily have these negative thoughts? You wouldn't. So just because you turn inward that doesn't mean you all of a sudden decide you want to have harmful mental patterns - they are already there.

I agree with you that if we were perfectly healthy, we wouldn't need introspection because we wouldn't have any symptoms.

 

[cmt12]

Friends, I added a signature. Please take note.

 

[xchocoholic]

Pwcs - got it. I've never had an interest in talk therapy (I'm more of a do-it-yourself type) and I'm not impressed at all with what I see from current mental health treatments.

In that regard, I'm with the majority opinion of this forum that mind based insights and treatments have been and are currently a failure. But where I differ is that I feel like the failure of introspection (collectively) is because we haven't taken it far enough yet. This is based on my experience (individually).

The problem I see is that it is pretty clear that harmful mental habits have negative effects on biology. This is pretty clear by now to doctors and researchers as well. Therefore, when patients deny the mental aspect entirely, it is probably just adding fuel to the fire and causing these BPSer's to feel even more validated in their view.

I understand the mistreatment that is occurring based on those that take the mental part to the extreme, denying any physical cause, but I don't think it is useful in the long term to react toward the other extreme.

Hi @cmt12

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but maybe you just haven't had the experience some of us have ???

In no way am I qualified to have a professional opinion on psychology / therapy but I've benefited from therapy several times. I like the honest unbiased feedback you get from a therapist vs friends or family. I'd be in jail if I listened to some people. Lol.

No my therapist didn't cure my cfs but I was an untreated celiac.
I've been slowly healing for 9 years now since going gf. And I'm healing despite having some negative attitudes. I was really po'd at the medical profession before and after my ataxia vanished.

I'm interested in what you think some of us are missing. I haven't read your posts elsewhere.

I've met a few overly dramatic people who fell apart over imaginary scenarios so I don't doubt these people could imagine they're ill and produce vomiting, nausea, headaches, etc. And they'd believe they had a brain tumor, etc.

But I can't see them fooling a competent doctor who knew what physical findings of cfs, or a brain tumor, etc. Cfs = Swollen lymph nodes, muscle spasms, specific cognitive impairment, OI, etc etc.

Most of us here have seen doctors who were competent in diagnosing cfs. Or at least know if we have real cfs symptoms.

Maybe I'm missing your point ?

Tx .. x

 

[xchocoholic]

Um. Some of us have been introspective off and on for decades ... anyone else watch OPRAH ? .. so this is "normal".

Tc .. x

 

[cmt12]

Hi @cmt12

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but maybe you just haven't had the experience some of us have ???

In no way am I qualified to have a professional opinion on psychology / therapy but I've benefited from therapy several times. I like the honest unbiased feedback you get from a therapist vs friends or family. I'd be in jail if I listened to some people. Lol.

No my therapist didn't cure my cfs but I was an untreated celiac.
I've been slowly healing for 9 years now since going gf. And I'm healing despite having some negative attitudes. I was really po'd at the medical profession before and after my ataxia vanished.

I'm interested in what you think some of us are missing. I haven't read your posts elsewhere.

I've met a few overly dramatic people who fell apart over imaginary scenarios so I don't doubt these people could imagine they're ill and produce vomiting, nausea, headaches, etc. And they'd believe they had a brain tumor, etc.

But I can't see them fooling a competent doctor who knew what physical findings of cfs to look for. Swollen lymph nodes, muscle spasms, specific cognitive impairment, OI, etc etc.

Most of us here have seen doctors who were competent in diagnosing cfs. Or at least know if we have real cfs symptoms.

Maybe I'm missing your point ?

Tx .. x

I mentioned that those negative mental patterns are symptoms of illness right? So if you can access these symptoms through introspection, what happens if you seek out these symptoms and follow them? Will it eventually lead to the (physical) cause? This is what I did and it's why I have a different perspective. It's hard to grasp until you've done it.

I need to be more careful in that I don't mean to be minimizing the efforts of doctors therapists, etc. They do really well when it comes to managing symptoms, but we are failing when it comes to cures because of a lack of correct information. That is where my frustration comes from.

 

[chipmunk1]

mentioned that those negative mental patterns are symptoms of illness right? So if you can access these symptoms through introspection, what happens if you seek out these symptoms and follow them? Will it eventually lead to the (physical) cause? This is what I did and it's why I have a different perspective. It's hard to grasp until you've done it.

but you aren't well so it didn't work yet, maybe it never will..

 

[xchocoholic]

The insecurity, self doubt, over analyzing - those are all automatic processes that are side effects of pain and illness. They are not side effects of introspection.

You may think they are caused by introspection because you became aware of them through introspection. But this is a lack of clarity (due to a lack of introspection) that is remedied by deeper introspection.

Think about it, why would you voluntarily have these negative thoughts? You wouldn't. So just because you turn inward that doesn't mean you all of a sudden decide you want to have harmful mental patterns - they are already there.

I agree with you that if we were perfectly healthy, we wouldn't need introspection because we wouldn't have any symptoms.

Hi @cmt12

So you consider insecurity, self doubt and over analyzing automatic processes brought on by pain and illness not introspection.

Interesting. I consider these introspection. Maybe we have a different understanding on introspection.

Actually the insecurity and self doubt can be from the financial impact of pain and illness. And lack of medical care.

For me, pain and illness bring on the desire to do something physical to stop the suffering. Pain meds, ice, etc.

Btw. Some of us here are/were engineers or scientists so analyzing is automatic. No sweating involved. ☺

Tc .. x

 

[Undisclosed]

There were some really nasty personal attacks on this thread which have been removed.

This is the second time in two days that we have had to moderate a thread to remove significant personal attacks.

This kind of thing needs to stop, it's unhealthy and unkind.

If you don't agree with what somebody has said by all means disagree but do NOT resort to provocative and inflammatory comments, personal attacks and other off-topic comments that have nothing to do with the subject matter.

If you see a member posting a personal attack, please use the report button and refrain from responding to them on the thread.

Personal attacks are not tolerated on Phoenix Rising.

If you happen to totally disagree with a members point of view, you don't need to attack them for it. Either post a response that refutes what they say without attacking them, or ignore them.

If you happen to have your own agenda, don't disrupt a thread with it, start your own thread.

Do not post provocative comments that are designed to upset members and cause arguments.

Please review Forum Rule #1 and follow it.

Rule 1: No rudeness or personal attacks

While we honor passionate and informed discussion we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts.

'Rudeness' means deliberately discourteous comments directed at another member. 'Insulting posts' are those that treat another member with deliberate rudeness and contempt. 'Purposeless inflammatory posts' are posts that are designed purely to provoke a reaction and cause an unpleasant argument.

Such behaviour is not tolerated here.

We take a very firm line on these forums regarding personal attacks, so it is important for all members to understand the difference between disagreeing with the content of another member's posts, and making a personal attack on someone.

Our definition of a 'personal attack' includes:

• attacking a member's motivation for a post
• attacking a member's character
• referring to a member in a contemptuous manner
• referring to a treatment that a member finds helpful in a contemptuous manner
• belittling a member using sarcasm
• questioning why somebody is present on the forum (accusing them of being a "mole" or a "troll")
• questioning a member's affiliation with other groups
• mocking a member's username
• making negative or rude statements about administrators or moderators
• attacking people or groups based on race, age, gender, sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

Disagreeing with comments made in another member's post does not constitute a personal attack. Members are allowed to refute the comments of other members and provide reasons why they don't agree. A member may also choose to contradict a comment and provide very little evidence to support their comments, and this does not count as a personal attack either. When a member chooses to attack the author of a post rather than the content of the post, that is a personal attack. Please keep your focus on the facts of the topic under discussion - not on the person with whom you disagree.

The diagram below illustrates the definition of a personal attack. It is obviously best to aspire to arguments at the top of the diagram, but provided you stay within the green area (Contradiction) and above, you are unlikely to trouble the moderators. Posts in the yellow zone (Responding to Tone) are likely to attract the attention of moderators, and may be removed. Anything in the orange zone (Ad Hominem) or below will be removed, and persistent posts of that nature may result in a suspension or ban.

We have removed/edited any posts that contain rules breaches. If you see that one of your posts has been moderated and want to know why, you can contact me via Conversation.

Thank you.

 

[adreno]

I agree that not much can be gained with introspection. The mind (brain) cannot stop working, and so when you exclude outside stimuli, mental imagery and thoughts are more or less randomly created, like dreams. This is not a valid source of knowledge. You will gain more knowledge about yourself by observing your own behavior.

 

[maddietod]

I agree that not much can be gained with introspection. The mind (brain) cannot stop working, and so when you exclude outside stimuli, mental imagery and thoughts are more or less randomly created, like dreams. This is not a valid source of knowledge. You will gain more knowledge about yourself by observing your own behavior.

It depends on how the introspection is done. Once you know how to sit in deep stillness, you can take an introspective idea/question into this space and see what arises. If something comes up, it comes from outside of your habitual patterns,and can be surprising and useful.

Of course the questions show up because we observe our behavior and want to shift something.

 

[xchocoholic]

It depends on how the introspection is done. Once you know how to sit in deep stillness, you can take an introspective idea/question into this space and see what arises. If something comes up, it comes from outside of your habitual patterns,and can be surprising and useful.

Of course the questions show up because we observe our behavior and want to shift something.

Hi @madietodd

That's interesting. I was never taught that I needed to sit a certain way or do anything physical to gain introspection. I find going on walks provokes introspection and is calming.

I was thinking introspection is more normal for women than men because we grow up talking to our girl friends about our feelings.
Later, if we become mothers, we share stories about our children and spouses behaviors.

Introspection after becoming chronically ill is very different tho. Most illnesses resolve themselves or with the help of certain meds or treatments.

We wind up being very different people than we were or ever wanted to be. We're constantly in a tug of war between acceptance and fighting for our lives.

Tc ... x

 

[maddietod]

Yes, @xchocoholic, there are other ways of getting the mind quiet enough for real insight (like walking). Music also works well for lots of people.

Introspection without insight is often like a dog circling before lying down. We go around and around in familiar territory, feel some relief, and settle down. Then something triggers the pattern again, and we repeat as needed. To me, this is a psychological process that looks conscious (we're thinking about the issue), but is actually almost entirely unconscious (there is nothing new about any of our way of relating with the issue).

When we gain insight sufficient to stop running these patterns, the associated emotions are, of course, not triggered. For those of us who feel worse overall when under the influence of "negative" emotions, there's a lot of benefit in this.

 

[TigerLilea]

Yes, @xchocoholic, there are other ways of getting the mind quiet enough for real insight (like walking). Music also works well for lots of people.

Introspection without insight is often like a dog circling before lying down. We go around and around in familiar territory, feel some relief, and settle down. Then something triggers the pattern again, and we repeat as needed. To me, this is a psychological process that looks conscious (we're thinking about the issue), but is actually almost entirely unconscious (there is nothing new about any of our way of relating with the issue).

When we gain insight sufficient to stop running these patterns, the associated emotions are, of course, not triggered. For those of us who feel worse overall when under the influence of "negative" emotions, there's a lot of benefit in this.

A really good book on this subject is "The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself" by Michael Singer. I'm in the process of learning about sitting in the seat of self-awareness.

 

[xchocoholic]

I'd forgotten about this. The introspection exercises I learned about 40 years ago included writing about one's feelings. It was started with "I'm angry ... " or "What you did really upset me ... '" "I feel good when ... " etc.

Writing about feelings gets you in touch with those feelings and helps to identify possible effective remedies.

It's meant for your eyes only and is torn up when you're done. I never found I needed more than 5-10 minutes.

Tearing it up signifies an end to thinking about that problem.

The next time you write you can re-hash the same problem but hopefully your perspective has changed.

Tc .. x