Violeta
Senior Member
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Brenda, would you explain your low blood sugar symptoms? Maybe there's another explanation.
Thanks
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?
- Thread starter Ripley
- Start date
Brenda, would you explain your low blood sugar symptoms? Maybe there's another explanation.
Thanks
Not sure. I don't even monitor my own transit times as I don't see it being particularly relevant unless you suffer from constipation perhaps, which I never have.
It is something my gf bought: http://www.iherb.com/HealthForce-Nutritionals-Vitamineral-Green-Version-5-2-400-VeganCaps/19407
Richard uses: http://www.iherb.com/p/35731?f=GJN291
And Tim Steele uses: http://www.iherb.com/Paradise-Herbs-ORAC-Energy-Protein-Greens-16-oz-454-g/17988
It's just something extra that may help support a good gut biome.
Violeta
Senior Member
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Brenda, what did you take for your thyroid that brought on those symptoms? And do you take any greens with your potato starch? Do you feel any skipped or extra heart beats?
adreno
PR activist
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I've got those too, but I believe for me those are excess T3 - I tried taking selenium and ashwagandha and both made the symptoms much worse. Do you also have pressure around your eyes and a lump in your throat?
@Violeta
I was taking Naturthroid at first but when I was having those symptoms, which I attributed to adrenal dysfunction, I took T3 but after a while got the hyper symptoms again so I guessed that the thyroid hormones were not getting into my cells. Also my TSH went up one of the few tests I manage to get on the NHS. I did have some palps at that time but not now. I did not take greens with the RS but was taking pre biotics but the one I took increased my histamine. I find that at the moment I cannot tolerate anything apart from Mutaflor and b2.
I was taking Naturthroid at first but when I was having those symptoms, which I attributed to adrenal dysfunction, I took T3 but after a while got the hyper symptoms again so I guessed that the thyroid hormones were not getting into my cells. Also my TSH went up one of the few tests I manage to get on the NHS. I did have some palps at that time but not now. I did not take greens with the RS but was taking pre biotics but the one I took increased my histamine. I find that at the moment I cannot tolerate anything apart from Mutaflor and b2.
Violeta
Senior Member
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- 2,963
@brenda and adreno,
Today I have been thinking about taking a step backwards, too. I have improved with respect to anxiety, endurance, and variety of foods I can eat since last fall by taking reishi. I had read that reishi's main action is from its polysaccharides, but hadn't put two and two together until after reading here for a couple of weeks. I asked if the polysaccharides act as a prebiotic, and Vegas said that the polysaccharides and beta-glucans put it in that category. When I was reading your symptoms it reminded me of back before I started the reishi, and also back to a couple of nights ago when I had another bad night. I do get the pressure around the eyes, too. Most recently around my right eye. It's terrible!
I am still taking the B2, also. I looked up the Mutaflor and it looks interesting. How long have you been taking that?I may try that. I can handle small amounts of Garden of Life SBO's, and it actually has helped me be able to eat foods containing purines.
A link to one of the blogs about resistant starch said that if your immune system is very compromised, you can start with charcoal, clay, and even antiparasiticals. I may alternate the reishi with pau d'arco tea until things improve.
I guess if your immune system has been less than adequate for some time, the bacteria can have been hiding out and building up a stronghold. So we just have to chip away at it. It's okay to slow down, just don't give up.
anne_likes_red
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,103
I haven't tried gluten (I feel I'm probably a way off from being confident enough to do that!), but since I started having Natto about 10 days ago I am definitely feeling a positive effect on my teeth.
I am curious about the gluten though - I wonder if this means b subtillis was an addition to the sourdough culture used (somewhere - in Germany perhaps?) which meant celiacs could eat bread with no negative reaction?
My swimming head feeling turned into a fever which ran for a couple of days. When Sushi mentioned feeling fluish as a result of taking the starch I couldn't imagine how that would work. Is there something particular about RS 2 that you wouldn't get from ingesting the 'same amount' of RS 3 from whole foods?
@Violeta I'm not having any negative reaction to the green banana flour - but I can't say it turns my potato starch smoothie - ie PS and water LOL - into a tropical taste sensation either!
It's a little more gritty than the fine potato starch. I'm not noticing it as any more or less effective than the PS. I'm stuck on very low doses at the moment. (I think due to endotoxin increase, and liver burden?I'm taking zinc as Vegas suggested, and milk thistle 3 x per day and I noticed the most recent lymph 'flare' resolved much more quickly. I just took a couple of days off starch completely while I got over the 'fluishness'.
I'm not sure about this but the active manuka honey I was taking occasionally seems more effective the past few weeks and I took some several days in a row before I developed the temperature/chills. Possibly not related at all but is anyone else suspecting antimicrobials may be more effective since taking RS2?
I took Mutaflor for a few months three years ago and it helped my MCS. Recently about two weeks since, l started again on it and 4 strains of B bifido which increased histamine so l stopped the bifido. I am going to try RS again but l really need to improve my sleep and stop the adrenal increase. I am also starting on various herbal antimicrobials to hopefully decrease the bad bacteria. Thanks for the encouragement.
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Sushi
Moderation Resource Albuquerque
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maddietod
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I started with 1 teaspoon on February 26th.
Sorry, every time I log in to see read this thread I get taken in another direction. I'm not sure when I am going to be able to add any substantial contributions, but I would like to say that I think people should trust their instincts. I find myself getting greedy with the RS. Consider taking a break altogether from the PS, and also consider not using any probiotics or fermented foods, at least not those that principally influence the colon. Get acclimated to the effects of RS alone. These have both the potential to mitigate and exacerbate symptoms; anecdotally, though, I feel like simultaneous administration of RS + B. Bifidum potentiates the effects of the immune stimulation and endotoxin mobilization. I may be accelerating the "purging," but I'm not sure most are going to find the associated symptoms worth what positive contribution, if any. This is going to be too much for many people, and as I have maintained all along, it will gain momentum.
Endotoxin mobilization is not dissimilar to P.E.M. Like P.E.M. and the accompanying cellular damage, once it starts, there is not much you can do. One will largely have to wait for the adverse effects to abate. Unfortunately the RS, I believe principally via enrichment of Clostridial/Bifidobacterial strains, will have a lingering effect one that can continue long after the 36 hours or so, that P.E.M. generally persists. This will be a time to rest, and perhaps try some of those things I recommended. I see @Sushi reporting some success with her own transdermal electrolyte supplement. In addition to the enhancement of hydrolysis, this can help by alkalizing the cells to acidify the bowel; these are interrelated processes, and I think pretty important for symptom mitigation.
Also, be aware of mood lability; I have used this as a guide, and I have witnessed this with others. If your mood crashes and you become very irritable or worse, this is a sign you are pushing too fast. Lymphatic involvement is a more advanced sign of immunostimulation and endotoxin mobilization (and more severe intestinal permeability), this can create more of a generalized achy sensation, mostly involving the back. Worsening lymph symptoms include localized lymphatic swelling, particularly in the legs, and some will certainly experience the "sore spot" as my kids call it where the messenteric lymphatics enter the circulatory system an inch or so to the left of the spinal column roughly at the level of the tip of the scapula. If you start to experience pain under the right or left rib cages, to include the liver and spleen, then you are really need to slow down. LPS detoxification requires these organs, so if they are aching, you will know why. Some will develop a more severe inflammatory response and that may include a fever for a couple of days, I found that this was precipitated by a localized infection. As Maes discussed, there is translocation of bacteria to other tissues. I found strong support for this in the literature, that, intestinal permeability would result in bacterial infections outside the bowel. The tissues which most closely communicate with the bowel, the urogenitary tract, are those most likely to be involved. I think some of these infections are latent...without apparent symptoms. but for those with more advanced illness or lengthier in duration, don't be surprised if you get localized areas of pain and mild-flu-like symptoms.
In addition to the endotoxin component, which I think can clearly account for many of the adverse symptoms, it does appear as if many are encountering hormonal and neuroendocrine adaptations, which I think is to be expected and should resolve more quickly. I have had trouble sleeping, "turning off" my mind, regulating temperature, etc. It is a bit unnerving. I am also experiencing some intermittent Raynaud's symptoms, which have transiently worsened with alternating improvement. This has steadily improved with my recovery, yet there has some been lots of volatility. This seems to be related to the hormonal changes. I will be interested to see if someone with postural hypotension experiences substantial improvement as I think there is a NO/eNOS component with both.
I also think, a number of symptoms, like headaches, can be attributed to "awakening" of processes that have not been functioning very efficiently in quite some time. Actually, increased energy metabolism is going to have myriad effects, but some of the things I think some in this thread are hinting at include enhanced phosphorylation and hydrolysis.
With regard to phosphorylation, as an example, think of that part which takes place in the intestinal mucosa, vitamin phosphorylation, which should result in greater bioavailability of certain micronutrients, which will impact neurotransmitter synthesis/conversion. The example I saw was B6/P5P. What I would like people to consider is that previous attempts to supplement with this vitamin could have failed because one didn't have the collateral metabolic capacity to handle the effects of what P5P will does...deaminate amino acids, synthesize histamine, synthesize cysteine. These process are inter-related for a reason: extra histamine, cysteine, and the effects of breaking down amino acids would produce harm to you. Same reason for the inhibition of pancreatic enzyme synthesis and HCL production in the stomach, this is another counter-regulatory mechanism because the availability of amines can be particularly harmful. As your capacity to metabolize these compounds improves the collateral processes also become more active.
What I am observing is an apparent decrease in pancreatic enzymes. Why, well because what happened to me was exactly what happened when I started taking them, my small intestines hurt/burned until I adjusted to these. There is a transitional period wherein there is decreased synthesis of these digestive enzymes to meet ones needs. As some of you may have experienced this, digestive enzymes will literally burn the intestinal lining. In my view this suggests a decreased need for hydrolysis. Less demand on the liver, and a lot less stuff in the blood, a consequence of improved intestinal permeability. Less stuff in my blood to break down. Hydrolysis is executed with ATP and involves the hydrolase family of enzymes. A broad category of enzymes that includes lipases, involved in beta oxidation, and the infamous Nagalase, a glycoside hydrolase. Then there is amine oxidase. Bifidobacteria possess many of these same enzymes. Time to start connecting the dots.
Endotoxin mobilization is not dissimilar to P.E.M. Like P.E.M. and the accompanying cellular damage, once it starts, there is not much you can do. One will largely have to wait for the adverse effects to abate. Unfortunately the RS, I believe principally via enrichment of Clostridial/Bifidobacterial strains, will have a lingering effect one that can continue long after the 36 hours or so, that P.E.M. generally persists. This will be a time to rest, and perhaps try some of those things I recommended. I see @Sushi reporting some success with her own transdermal electrolyte supplement. In addition to the enhancement of hydrolysis, this can help by alkalizing the cells to acidify the bowel; these are interrelated processes, and I think pretty important for symptom mitigation.
Also, be aware of mood lability; I have used this as a guide, and I have witnessed this with others. If your mood crashes and you become very irritable or worse, this is a sign you are pushing too fast. Lymphatic involvement is a more advanced sign of immunostimulation and endotoxin mobilization (and more severe intestinal permeability), this can create more of a generalized achy sensation, mostly involving the back. Worsening lymph symptoms include localized lymphatic swelling, particularly in the legs, and some will certainly experience the "sore spot" as my kids call it where the messenteric lymphatics enter the circulatory system an inch or so to the left of the spinal column roughly at the level of the tip of the scapula. If you start to experience pain under the right or left rib cages, to include the liver and spleen, then you are really need to slow down. LPS detoxification requires these organs, so if they are aching, you will know why. Some will develop a more severe inflammatory response and that may include a fever for a couple of days, I found that this was precipitated by a localized infection. As Maes discussed, there is translocation of bacteria to other tissues. I found strong support for this in the literature, that, intestinal permeability would result in bacterial infections outside the bowel. The tissues which most closely communicate with the bowel, the urogenitary tract, are those most likely to be involved. I think some of these infections are latent...without apparent symptoms. but for those with more advanced illness or lengthier in duration, don't be surprised if you get localized areas of pain and mild-flu-like symptoms.
In addition to the endotoxin component, which I think can clearly account for many of the adverse symptoms, it does appear as if many are encountering hormonal and neuroendocrine adaptations, which I think is to be expected and should resolve more quickly. I have had trouble sleeping, "turning off" my mind, regulating temperature, etc. It is a bit unnerving. I am also experiencing some intermittent Raynaud's symptoms, which have transiently worsened with alternating improvement. This has steadily improved with my recovery, yet there has some been lots of volatility. This seems to be related to the hormonal changes. I will be interested to see if someone with postural hypotension experiences substantial improvement as I think there is a NO/eNOS component with both.
I also think, a number of symptoms, like headaches, can be attributed to "awakening" of processes that have not been functioning very efficiently in quite some time. Actually, increased energy metabolism is going to have myriad effects, but some of the things I think some in this thread are hinting at include enhanced phosphorylation and hydrolysis.
With regard to phosphorylation, as an example, think of that part which takes place in the intestinal mucosa, vitamin phosphorylation, which should result in greater bioavailability of certain micronutrients, which will impact neurotransmitter synthesis/conversion. The example I saw was B6/P5P. What I would like people to consider is that previous attempts to supplement with this vitamin could have failed because one didn't have the collateral metabolic capacity to handle the effects of what P5P will does...deaminate amino acids, synthesize histamine, synthesize cysteine. These process are inter-related for a reason: extra histamine, cysteine, and the effects of breaking down amino acids would produce harm to you. Same reason for the inhibition of pancreatic enzyme synthesis and HCL production in the stomach, this is another counter-regulatory mechanism because the availability of amines can be particularly harmful. As your capacity to metabolize these compounds improves the collateral processes also become more active.
What I am observing is an apparent decrease in pancreatic enzymes. Why, well because what happened to me was exactly what happened when I started taking them, my small intestines hurt/burned until I adjusted to these. There is a transitional period wherein there is decreased synthesis of these digestive enzymes to meet ones needs. As some of you may have experienced this, digestive enzymes will literally burn the intestinal lining. In my view this suggests a decreased need for hydrolysis. Less demand on the liver, and a lot less stuff in the blood, a consequence of improved intestinal permeability. Less stuff in my blood to break down. Hydrolysis is executed with ATP and involves the hydrolase family of enzymes. A broad category of enzymes that includes lipases, involved in beta oxidation, and the infamous Nagalase, a glycoside hydrolase. Then there is amine oxidase. Bifidobacteria possess many of these same enzymes. Time to start connecting the dots.
- Messages
- 40
@Vegas thanks for this, very interesting stuff! Your posts makes me wish I would've studies biochemistry instead of social sciences ;-) Fascinating stuff.
I've been having pain in my spleen for ±5 days, although it's subsiding a bit now. I thought it was because I was doing some new core exercises, hah! I'll lower the dose of supplemental fibers a bit until it subsides.
I've been having pain in my spleen for ±5 days, although it's subsiding a bit now. I thought it was because I was doing some new core exercises, hah! I'll lower the dose of supplemental fibers a bit until it subsides.
Violeta
Senior Member
- Messages
- 2,963
Ditto on that!
I am thinking that clay would help the body deal with the adverse effects of endotoxin and the heavy metals that might be released by absorbing them and guaranteeing that they are removed. If anyone knows if this is contradictory, I would appreciate the input.
You mean like Bentonite? Orally or transdermal? I know they have used clay minerals orally, in animals, for quite some time, to bind endotoxins. Bentonite does have some binding capacity at least in the animal GIT; in humans this might depend upon pH. The other questions include: how well would it disperse, does it bind and stay bound to the clay minerals, and what kind of binding efficiency does it have? So, orally, I know it has can bind to LPS, and I have seen numerous anecdotal reports of the effectiveness of Bentonite clay in reducing symptoms, but I don't know what precipitated these symptoms that were reportedly mitigated.
Using a foot bath with clay? I suppose this could have some effect, but I doubt you will find any relevant studies. I'm actually not sure what properties of the clay allow it to bind to LPS, but if it the "stuff" that has these binding properties reached the local tissues this has potential to have an effect because this is principally where the inflammatory effect is mediated, well and the liver. I don't have personal experience with clay minerals.
As for heavy metals, clay wouldn't be what I would choose. I wouldn't expect clay minerals to have any effect unless there is an organosulfur compound in there with some thiol groups. I think I would stick with chelation methods with a track record if you want to go that route, but I think your best bet is to see if you can correct the intestinal permeability so you are not recycling these and other toxins back and forth through your liver and GIT. I'm certain plenty on this forum have experienced the joys of enterohepatic circulation while having intestinal permeability. It's like the gift that keeps on giving, and I'm sure some don't even know what is happening. I cannot overstate the importance of keeping this stuff in the bowel and out of the blood and liver. This is true of any accumulated toxins, but particularly true for LPS because LPS WILL DISPROPORTIONATELY ELICIT AN IMMUNE/INFLAMMATORY RESPONSE IN THE LIVER, SPLEEN, LOCAL TISSUES, AND LYMPHATICS. It's the major immune responses outside the bowel, that might precipitate a systemic reaction, like a fever, but I expect this to be unusual. Proportionately there is more LPS in the GIT, but it is supposed to be in there in the GIT, in some quantities. If you can bind it in the GIT and thus reduce the percentage that can potentially make it to these sensitive tissues where the majority of the symptoms are initiated, go for it, but in order of priority the MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO IS TO REDUCE THE PERMEABILITY, This is where the RS is going to prove to be most useful, if done in conservatively.
Good lord, I'm not a biochemist. I only wish I didn't have to pretend to be one. ME/CFS can be quite motivating to learn new things, in a very cruel way. When one watches their own child struggle with ME/CFS or another lose nearly all ability to speak after a 24 month vaccine, it doesn't take much motivation to find answers. I was simply fortunate enough to have gone through this myself; otherwise, I never would have been able to gain the personal insights that I do have.
Asklipia
Senior Member
- Messages
- 999
Thank you so much @Vegas for providing all this information, and many blessings on you and your family. May all the courage and strength you directed at helping Life surround you with love and beauty.
You are an immense help.
@Violeta As to my strategy for "detox" I found that by oil pulling three times a day with sesame oil, I seem to see much improvement.
Could be because it dissolves and takes away mechanically some toxins, or for its effect on liver and emptying the gallbladder. Or both, or because it flushes the lymph from the head by mechanical action.
I eat a lemon from time to time, without the skin, taken from my own tree.
And go for a soak in my thermal lake (sulfur there as well as lithium).
This morning (after 5 days on 1 teaspoon of PS) : I slept very well without waking up, but very strong dream recall ( more Vitamin B6 I suppose : ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11883552).
In one dream I looked at my face in a mirror and saw that I had very full, nearly bushy eyebrows!!! Sadly un-bushy at the moment so this could be a good omen!
In another I got pissed with a taxi-driver who was a strange character, a bit dangerous and unpredictable. He had a pendulum in his wallet, which I saw when he gave me change back when I paid him. Just as I have! I showed him mine (!?!) and after that we became pals and went for a drink together, and even though lots of people tried to stop us, we had very many drinks. All the time I was thinking : this is not a good idea!!!!!!
Could be my body is feeling the release of methyl going on.
In retrospect I wonder if he was not some kind of male double of myself, the Naughty Guy.
Feeling fine this morning, despite that dreamed binge, with exceptionally good balance on my feet. Could stand on one foot no problem while doing difficult things in the air with the other foot. Don't ask. The mind is clear.
Obviously I am NOT going to increase that teaspoon soon.
Oh, I forgot to add : yesterday whilst reading, I laughed aloud on five different occasions. This hadn't happened for YEARS. I don't think it was the book particularly (Umberto Eco : The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana - all about memory, for you @Ripley) and @Gestalt ).
More serotonin? This could turn my life around. This could help switch from Heroic Mode when I do perfectly and easily everything for Others, to Enjoying Mode, at least from time to time - too disrupting if this nice yoga-teaching granny turned into a binge-enjoying cougar.
Let's see.
You are an immense help.
@Violeta As to my strategy for "detox" I found that by oil pulling three times a day with sesame oil, I seem to see much improvement.
Could be because it dissolves and takes away mechanically some toxins, or for its effect on liver and emptying the gallbladder. Or both, or because it flushes the lymph from the head by mechanical action.
I eat a lemon from time to time, without the skin, taken from my own tree.
And go for a soak in my thermal lake (sulfur there as well as lithium).
This morning (after 5 days on 1 teaspoon of PS) : I slept very well without waking up, but very strong dream recall ( more Vitamin B6 I suppose : ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11883552).
In one dream I looked at my face in a mirror and saw that I had very full, nearly bushy eyebrows!!! Sadly un-bushy at the moment so this could be a good omen!
In another I got pissed with a taxi-driver who was a strange character, a bit dangerous and unpredictable. He had a pendulum in his wallet, which I saw when he gave me change back when I paid him. Just as I have! I showed him mine (!?!) and after that we became pals and went for a drink together, and even though lots of people tried to stop us, we had very many drinks. All the time I was thinking : this is not a good idea!!!!!!
Could be my body is feeling the release of methyl going on.
In retrospect I wonder if he was not some kind of male double of myself, the Naughty Guy.
Feeling fine this morning, despite that dreamed binge, with exceptionally good balance on my feet. Could stand on one foot no problem while doing difficult things in the air with the other foot. Don't ask. The mind is clear.
Obviously I am NOT going to increase that teaspoon soon.
Oh, I forgot to add : yesterday whilst reading, I laughed aloud on five different occasions. This hadn't happened for YEARS. I don't think it was the book particularly (Umberto Eco : The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana - all about memory, for you @Ripley) and @Gestalt ).
More serotonin? This could turn my life around. This could help switch from Heroic Mode when I do perfectly and easily everything for Others, to Enjoying Mode, at least from time to time - too disrupting if this nice yoga-teaching granny turned into a binge-enjoying cougar.
Let's see.
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Asklipia
Senior Member
- Messages
- 999
You must be joking.
I have been taking my teaspoon of PS mixed with a double tablespoon of ewe-milk yoghurt. It could explain how I get so strong results.
For the next few days, I'll stop the yoghurt, take it in cold water and report on the difference.
MeSci
ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
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- 8,231
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- Cornwall, UK
I agree with others that you (@Vegas) provide a lot of useful info, which I appreciate. There is stuff there that I didn't know.
Just want to query some of the symptoms that you cite as being a result of treatments, as AFAIK they are also typical ME symptoms, and I certainly experience or have experienced most of them a lot of the time since becoming ill.
Examples:
(I should add that I have already improved a great deal from my worst, thanks to a leaky-gut regime, so am asking partly on behalf of others.)
Just want to query some of the symptoms that you cite as being a result of treatments, as AFAIK they are also typical ME symptoms, and I certainly experience or have experienced most of them a lot of the time since becoming ill.
Examples:
- Mood lability
- Generalized achy sensation
- Localized lymphatic swelling, particularly in the legs
- Pain under the right or left rib cages
- Trouble sleeping
- (Trouble) "turning off" (my) mind
- (Trouble) regulating temperature
- Intermittent Raynaud's symptoms
- Headaches
(I should add that I have already improved a great deal from my worst, thanks to a leaky-gut regime, so am asking partly on behalf of others.)
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