The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Vegas]

Hi Vegas

Unless there is something I am not understanding, how can getting rid of tyrosine be a good thing since it's a precursor to dopamine synthesis?

Rand

Yes, well of course you need tyrosine, but these and all the related compounds whether conferring no biologic advantage, and considered truly adverse or toxic, or something that is essential for life, need to be metabolized. Otherwise lots of secondary problems develop. It's
a more pervasive problem involving these compounds more generally. One example though would be the interference of phenols which have estrogenic properties. Pretty sure you don't want to have a diminished capacity to metabolize these.

My wife's family has a house in Surfside. Maybe we can discuss this on the Beach this summer.

 

[Vegas]

@Violeta - I remember reading about phosphorus having something to do with energy in the body. Saw you mention phosphorus, just thought I'd paste a link about it: (please note, the author of this linked site has political/religious opinions elsewhere on his site in an odd manner; I only use his site for theories about minerals to then look up on other sites).

http://drlwilson.com/articles/PHOSPHORUS.htm

Phosphorylation of ATP, Phosphorylation of Vitamins, a big problem, and something I think is being effected quite dramatically by the RS. Think of there being a sensor of sorts in the GIT, which regulates how much energy one can produce. Actually there are countless overlapping checks an balances that regulate this balance between providing someone with energy and not harming them with free radicals. Obviously those "sensors" exist all over the body, but I think the conditions of the intestinal lining are much more important than previously thought because a breach and perhaps the absence of specific commensal organisms can create so much harm.

The "sensor" most well known to me, is, in simple terms, continuously gauging ones capacity to neutralize the free radicals versus the cumulative oxidative effects created by these free radicals. This has the effect of a master switch of sorts, which slows down energy generation, detoxification, and some other less essential processes while simultaneously inducing some chemical reactions that are protective. There has to be tight control over phosphorylation and the cellular mechanisms that generate energy from our fats, carbohydrates, and proteins.

 

[Vegas]

I think I am going to space it as you do. Something very important is going on and I do not want to rush it and miss the details.

I tend to agree, as my instinctual and logical abilities tell me so. More objectively though, my temperature increase speaks volumes. Difficult for me to imagine how this would occur unless my metabolic capacity is increasing.

 

[xjhuez]

Regarding your post on Vit D and hydroxylation (which is excellent but mostly over my head) I was wondering if some misstep in the process you describe might be why supplemental cholecalciferol makes me feel sick. I rely on sunlight in the summer and on salmon & eggs in the winter. These whole-food sources of Vit D don't make me sick, so I'd assumed the processing of the D3 from fish liver or lanolin was the culprit.

 

[thomas_3000]

@zzz0r i've had some thread worms when I was around 10 or so. I still vividly remember that I was about to flush until I saw something moving in my stool. Crazy.

A few weeks/a month ago I passed stool that looked extremely weird. Like some kind of gooey rope. Your threadworm suggestion got me started on a search for worms and now I'm actually (call me crazy) starting to think that what I had are/were rope worms. I found an image online that looks almost exactly like my stool back then, but be warned that these pictures are of human stool, i.e. extremely gross. If you want to see, you can click here.

An important caveat is that one year ago I got really sick whilst traveling through South East Asia, likely from ill-prepared meat (it took me 3 weeks to become relatively functional again). And guess what the main pathway to infection for human is? .. You guessed it. However, before that I've been sick for years with IBS and chronic fatigue.

There's some more info about rope worms in humans here. BTW: To me it seems that the 'new discovery' of 'rope worms' seems like a bunch of BS, given the shady Russian research behind it.

And no, this has nothing to do with RS ;-) I might open up my own thread somewhere when I've convinced myself that this could be (part of) the problem. And apologies in advance for the potentially offensive images.

 

[MeSci]

@zzz0r i've had some thread worms when I was around 10 or so. I still vividly remember that I was about to flush until I saw something moving in my stool. Crazy.

A few weeks/a month ago I passed stool that looked extremely weird. Like some kind of gooey rope. Your threadworm suggestion got me started on a search for worms and now I'm actually (call me crazy) starting to think that what I had are/were rope worms. I found an image online that looks almost exactly like my stool back then, but be warned that these pictures are of human stool, i.e. extremely gross. If you want to see, you can click here.

An important caveat is that one year ago I got really sick whilst traveling through South East Asia, likely from ill-prepared meat (it took me 3 weeks to become relatively functional again). And guess what the main pathway to infection for human is? .. You guessed it. However, before that I've been sick for years with IBS and chronic fatigue.

There's some more info about rope worms in humans here. BTW: To me it seems that the 'new discovery' of 'rope worms' seems like a bunch of BS, given the shady Russian research behind it.

And no, this has nothing to do with RS ;-) I might open up my own thread somewhere when I've convinced myself that this could be (part of) the problem. And apologies in advance for the potentially offensive images.

I've already seen the stuff about ropeworms and I agree that it is probably BS, or to be more relevant, HS!

I think the alleged 'ropeworms' are just solidified mucus and/or more-solid material eroded or otherwise shed from the gut wall.

 

[Lynn]

My gf had taken RS for several weeks with me, and had no improvement in her eczema. Then she singly took L.Plantarum and after 2 weeks her eczema symptoms considerably diminished so she knows that one species/strain has a profound effect for her.

I don't want to do the work to make sauerkraut or kimchi. Would just taking L.Plantarum be a substitute? Do you have a brand you would recommend? Also can it survive being shipped?

Thanks,
Lynn

 

[Ripley]

I don't want to do the work to make sauerkraut or kimchi. Would just taking L.Plantarum be a substitute? Do you have a brand you would recommend? Also can it survive being shipped?

Thanks,
Lynn

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Heisenbug — who was instrumental in confirming the eczema link — used this Jarrow brand L. plantarum:

http://amzn.com/B003DKO9ME

It's a pretty hefty dose. Each capsule contains 10 billion L. plantarum 299v.

Also, Mr. Heisenbug believes the probiotic is useful for restoring/seeding reserves, but recommends using fermented foods for maintenance doses. I know the homemade stuff is better, but you can find small-batch homemade fermented foods at farmer's markets and some health food stores.

 

[Vegas]

Regarding your post on Vit D and hydroxylation (which is excellent but mostly over my head) I was wondering if some misstep in the process you describe might be why supplemental cholecalciferol makes me feel sick. I rely on sunlight in the summer and on salmon & eggs in the winter. These whole-food sources of Vit D don't make me sick, so I'd assumed the processing of the D3 from fish liver or lanolin was the culprit.

Well, I suppose with any nutrient that makes you feel bad, it is either in a form that you cannot efficiently metabolize, and/or it has a consequential effect on another process, such as accelerating or inhibiting another chemical reaction. Both of these could precipitate a symptomatic response. I guess there are other explanations, but that is what comes to mind.

I guess to start, a combination of VDR polymorphisms may contribute to your susceptibility since many of these have been shown to substantially influence Vitamin D metabolism. I don't think these alone would result in adverse symptoms. The form you are taking still needs to be hydroxylated, so this is problematic. Your body, principally the cells in your liver have to do this. Also, not only is D3 fat-soluble, unlike the water-soluble Vit D manufactured via sunlight exposure, it is also unsulphated. So if you read what I was saying about hydroxylation and amine metabolism, you just need to understand that sulphation is impaired in ME/CFS, autism (and I'm sure other inflammatory conditions) yet sulfation represents one of the liver's primary, if not the primary, method for detoxifing amines, phenols, some bacterial components etc. Do you see how these things, hydroxylation in the liver and sulfation are related?

I personally use Cod Liver Oil, FWIW.

 

[Vegas]

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Heisenbug — who was instrumental in confirming the eczema link — used this Jarrow brand L. plantarum:

http://amzn.com/B003DKO9ME

It's a pretty hefty dose. Each capsule contains 10 billion L. plantarum 299v.

I used that brand too, talk about massive die off. Only the store-bought Kimchi was worse.

My two that have eczema are doing great. Couldn't get a whole lot of cooperation from them in eating the fermented food, but they will eat the yogurt and RS smoothies.

 

[xjhuez]

So if you read what I was saying about hydroxylation and amine metabolism, you just need to understand that sulphation is impaired in ME/CFS, autism (and I'm sure other inflammatory conditions) yet sulfation represents one of the liver's primary, if not the primary, method for detoxifing amines, phenols, some bacterial components etc. Do you see how these things, hydroxylation in the liver and sulfation are related?

I'm trying to - biochemistry not being my strong point. I don't seem to have a problem with phenol-containing foods. Amine, possibly. Glutamate, definitely.

I personally use Cod Liver Oil, FWIW.

I've been wanting to try the Green Pastures butter oil & fermented cod liver oil combo, but it's pretty damn expensive.

 

[Violeta]

What you describe are features of diabetes insispitus. I had some of these symptoms, but they have long since disappeared. They would sometimes worsen temporarily when subjecting my body to extra physiological stress, which I think fits what RVK is saying. Basically he maintains that it is a symptom mediated by glutathione availability:

Below is what Rich said, may he rest in peace:

"The diabetes insipidus in ME/CFS is usually found to be central diabetes insipidus, due to low secretion of antidiuretic hormone (vasopressin). According to my hypothesis, this is due to glutathione depletion in the hypothalamus and pituitary. Some people have been helped by taking desmopressin, which is a synthetic form of vasopressin, available orally or as a nose spray. However, the sodium level in the blood can go off-normal on this treatment, and needs to be monitored."

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-test-for-partial-diabetes-insipidus.15362/

Thanks, I did go check out that thread. So I guess that means this does not have anything to do with the 21-hydroxylase, or does it? Forgive me if I get things that you explain wrong; I'm trying but I'm so far behind you that it's a little embarrassing. These symptoms started for me when I was 4 or 5, the first chronic symptoms that I can remember. I did finally figure out about it being caused by low secretion of vasopressin. I will look into the idea of glutathione depletion in the hypothalamus and pituitary being the cause, interesting. I did find that what I read about reishi suggested that it might help, started taking it for a different reason though. Shortly after starting it I found that it definitely helped. The only other thing that I've found helps is glucose, especially glucose with a little bit of coke. You would think that would wake someone up and cause insomnia, but it actually turns off the constant urination and helps me fall asleep. It works much better at night than during the daytime, actually.

 

[Asklipia]

The only other thing that I've found helps is glucose, especially glucose with a little bit of coke. You would think that would wake someone up and cause insomnia, but it actually turns off the constant urination and helps me fall asleep. It works much better at night than during the daytime, actually.

Coke = phosphoric acid
http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2013/09/what-happens-to-our-body-after-drinking-coca-cola.html
night time = liver time!

 

[Violeta]

@Vegas
"It doesn't work that way, lots of implications when you take sulfurophane. It is not likely harming you, it is a symptom likely created by immunostimulation. What does it do to you?"

I get a variety of symptoms: froggy voice, hot and cold from low body temperature, headache, tightness in digestive tract, difficulty swallowing food, loss of appetite, insomnia. I chalked it up to the goitrogen effect. Later I have that it enhances Phase I detoxification, which enhances CYP450's. Included in that explanation is that triggering CYP 450 production sets off heme production, which is never fully accomplished and so the turn off mechanism isn't activated, thus a porphyrin buildup. Which is the reason for me, or as you said, is there a different reason.

Someone with an autoimmune disease tried the ever popular politically correct green juice fast and got the same symptoms. She had a blood test done, and TSH was down!!!, I forget what T3 and T4 were, something ironic. I'll have to see if I can find that. I have had a thought that it may affect body temperature, but moreso through conversion of T4 to Th3 messup, maybe in the liver.

BTW, do you have any deep thoughts on the word "ironic", given it's meaning, root, and value to one's health?

Okay, day 1 PS.

We should start a thread....AskVegas

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas
"It doesn't work that way, lots of implications when you take sulfurophane. It is not likely harming you, it is a symptom likely created by immunostimulation. What does it do to you?"

I get a variety of symptoms: froggy voice, hot and cold from low body temperature, headache, tightness in digestive tract, difficulty swallowing food, loss of appetite, insomnia. I chalked it up to the goitrogen effect. Later I have that it enhances Phase I detoxification, which enhances CYP450's. Included in that explanation is that triggering CYP 450 production sets off heme production, which is never fully accomplished and so the turn off mechanism isn't activated, thus a porphyrin buildup. Which is the reason for me, or as you said, is there a different reason.

That sounds pretty painful, and seems to suggest a number of things. Sulfurophane obviously does have lots of effects including liver detox, as you mention, certainly capable of causing a headache when there is not adequate ability to conjugate what you were mobilizing. It's some pretty powerful stuff though. You have probably heard that it it has activity against H. Pylori, and this can cause some very unpleasant effects...that is when you have an infection higher up in the digestive tract and you kill stuff. I experienced this when I started B. bifidum. Tightness in the stomach would be one of those symptoms produced from the contractions resultant from the bacterial "battle." This can effect peristalsis, and lead to reflux affecting your appetite, swallowing, and altering your voice; acid will certainly do that. Sounds a lot like an upper GI infection. Just a thought,

I guess the other thing that comes to mind is that sulfurophane is an HDAC inhibitor. Someone wrote about this recently, IIRC. Talking about these being used to treat migraines and mood disorders, and how there may be an Nitric Oxide connection, which characterizes Raynaud's pathogenesis and temperature regulation. Someone told me about something similar in the past, but I don't recall all the details. I think I also mentioned that butyrate can also inhibit histone deacetylation. Though the means in which sulfurophane does this is going to be very different than what butyrate does. I'd choose the RS to affect butyrate synthesis.

 

[Vegas]

I'm trying to - biochemistry not being my strong point. I don't seem to have a problem with phenol-containing foods. Amine, possibly. Glutamate, definitely.

It's not my strong point either, but I'm trying. It has been a learning experience for sure. One of the things that makes this so difficult is that one has to think about both the interaction of human and bacterial physiology and the interspecies connection. It also took me awhile to understand that most molecules have favorable and unfavorable consequences to the host. Hydrogen sulfide, from bacteria, for example can be poisoning you at one level, but at lower concentrations it can participate in epithelial tissue repair in the GIT. Those little jerks want to keep us alive for their own benefit. I guess if we can correct the permeability and maintain the mucosal integrity, we can finally tell them to go home.

 

[Asklipia]

Someone with an autoimmune disease tried the ever popular politically correct green juice fast and got the same symptoms.

Folate poisoning.

 

[brenda]

I was okay during my first night of taking up with RS again, minus probiotics. No adrenal surge. I think that I went too quickly previously, thinking that I had to get to 2 Tbsp before any real results could be seen, from what I was reading. I will add Mutaflor in after a week as I think it is okay.

Sleep was okay, waking twice for an hour each time, and am disappointed that melatonin does not seem to be helping much though still at 0.25 gm.

So I will very slowly increase the RS and melatonin and have started rife for insomnia.

 

[Violeta]

That sounds pretty painful, and seems to suggest a number of things. Sulfurophane obviously does have lots of effects including liver detox, as you mention, certainly capable of causing a headache when there is not adequate ability to conjugate what you were mobilizing. It's some pretty powerful stuff though. You have probably heard that it it has activity against H. Pylori, and this can cause some very unpleasant effects...that is when you have an infection higher up in the digestive tract and you kill stuff. I experienced this when I started B. bifidum. Tightness in the stomach would be one of those symptoms produced from the contractions resultant from the bacterial "battle." This can effect peristalsis, and lead to reflux affecting your appetite, swallowing, and altering your voice; acid will certainly do that. Sounds a lot like an upper GI infection. Just a thought,

I guess the other thing that comes to mind is that sulfurophane is an HDAC inhibitor. Someone wrote about this recently, IIRC. Talking about these being used to treat migraines and mood disorders, and how there may be an Nitric Oxide connection, which characterizes Raynaud's pathogenesis and temperature regulation. Someone told me about something similar in the past, but I don't recall all the details. I think I also mentioned that butyrate can also inhibit histone deacetylation. Though the means in which sulfurophane does this is going to be very different than what butyrate does. I'd choose the RS to affect butyrate synthesis.

There certainly are a lot of people who seem to benefit from the goitrogenic foods, mainly the greens, and I suppose it could be their beneficial action that is causing my reaction to them, but I just thought of one goitrogen that most likely wouldn't be considered medicinal but causes the same reaction....peanuts. My logic may be off, let me know if it is.

Either way, you're right that RS and it's effect on butyrate synthesis is a better choice.

Last night 1/2 hour after taking it, my feet and hands got cold, but I slept much more soundly than usual. I'm wondering if the cold hands and feet are simply from the blood getting a little dirtier and thicker and circulation in the extremities decreasing. Another thing that happened was that I started breathing much more deeply. Usually my breathing is very shallow, almost unnoticeable. I didn't get a morning headache, so my reaction to it isn't so unbearable. I did get the sticking pain under the breastbone that someone else had mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if I do have an infection in the upper GI tract. The idea that the possibility of RS and/or the right probiotic can balance or reactivate the immune system and so many different areas of concern can be dealt with makes me really hopeful.

Thanks again for your insight.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I'm personally not going anywhere near tablespoons again in the foreseeable...
It's been well over a week since I did. Never mind free the animal, I unleashed a beast!
Thanks for the clay recommendation....(Violeta and Frou I think). It really helps. I used calcium bentonite and some "detox clay" (which tastes like dirt). I can't tell which one helps more.

Little and not too often is the plan....

PS Thanks from me too Vegas.