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The Fight is on...Imperial College XMRV Study

Orla

Senior Member
Messages
708
Location
Ireland
Hi Koan, a lot of readers might interpret it that way, but that is not how they would have meant it (i'll eat my foot if I am wrong!). Psyhciatric patients can be markedly unwell without it being accepted that they have have an organic condition.

Orla
 
K

_Kim_

Guest
The British study was carried out under the most rigorous testing conditions that minimised the risk of cross contamination, Professor McClure said. The testing was also conducted "blind" meaning the scientists involved did not know which samples came from patients and which came from the healthy controls until the end of the experiment.

HEALTHY CONTROLS?? :eek: Whaaaa??? :worried: There is NO mention of healthy controls being part of their study. Am I missing this??? :ashamed:
 

valia

Senior Member
Messages
207
Location
UK
"The lab in which we carried out the analysis had never housed any of the murine leukaemia viruses related to XMRV, and we took great care to ensure there was no contamination. We are confident our results show there is no link between XMRV and CFS, at least in the UK." The authors say there is no evidence to justify testing people with CFS for the virus or putting them on drug treatment.


Sorry, I had meant to highlight this last statement, it looks like they are deliberately trying to discredit WPI
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
Hi Koan, a lot of readers might interpret it that way, but that is not how they would have meant it (i'll eat my foot if I am wrong!). Psyhciatric patients can be markedly unwell without it being accepted that they have have an organic condition.

Orla

I'm sure you're right, Orla - but Vernon puts them in a position where they'll have to come right out and SAY they didn't mean it's a real illness, which is pretty savvy.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
The Imperial College XMRV Study - Media Response

Let's see how the media treats this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-claim-to-have-found-the-cause-of-me-is-premature-1859003.html


This one from London swallows the whole study - hook, line and sinker:ashamed:

and they take Science and the WPI to task for publishing the study at all.

January 6, 2010
Scientists' claim to have found the cause of ME is 'premature'
By Steve Connor, Science Editor
British researchers say US team should have waited for more evidence of viral link before publishing findings

British scientists have failed to find a link between a new kind of retrovirus and chronic fatigue syndrome in a study that contradicts previous findings by American researchers claiming to have found a possible viral cause of the debilitating condition.

The UK scientists could not detect a recently discovered virus called XMRV in any of the blood samples collected from 186 patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, which is also known as myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME). The researchers believe this demonstrates that XMRV is not implicated in the illness, at least not in Britain.

One scientist involved in the latest research also criticised the previous study, which was published in the peer-reviewed journal Science, saying it was premature and that the journal should have waited until there was stronger, corroborating evidence of such a link.

"When you've got such a stunning result you want to be absolutely clear that you are 1,000 per cent right and there are things in that [previous study] I would not have done. I would have waited. I would have stalled a little," said Professor Myra McClure, a virologist at Imperial College London and a leading member of the British research team.

Chronic fatigue syndrome affects about three in every 1,000 people and results in severe physical and mental exhaustion. After the release of the apparent link with XMRV, many patients have asked their doctors about being tested for the virus and whether they should be taking antiretroviral drugs.

The earlier study, published last October, was carried out by a team led by Judy Mikovits, director of research at the Whittemore Peterson Institute in Reno, Nevada. They found the murine leukaemia virus-related virus (XMRV) in blood samples of 68 of 101 patients diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. Just eight out of 101 healthy "controls" drawn at random from the same parts of the US also tested positive, suggesting that XMRV played a key role in triggering the condition. Dr Mikovits told The Independent at the time that further blood testing had found the virus in as many as 95 per cent of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. She also said that preliminary testing on a batch of blood samples sent from Britain showed that the "same percentages are holding up".

However, Professor McClure's study, published in the online journal Plos One, failed to find any evidence of the XMRV's DNA in blood samples taken from 186 patients who had been diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome for at least four years. She also failed to find any virus related to XMRV.

"We are confident that our results show there is no link between XMRV and chronic fatigue syndrome, at least in the UK. The US study had some dramatic results that implied people with the illness could be treated with antiretrovirals. Our recommendation to people with chronic fatigue syndrome would be not to change their treatment regime, because our results suggest that antiretroviral would not be an effective treatment for the condition," Professor McClure said.

The British study was carried out under the most rigorous testing conditions that minimised the risk of cross contamination, Professor McClure said. The testing was also conducted "blind" meaning the scientists involved did not know which samples came from patients and which came from the healthy controls until the end of the experiment.

The DNA test used to detect the presence of XMRV in the blood samples is so sensitive that it would have shown up positive if just one molecule of the virus's genetic material had been present in the blood samples. However, the tests were only carried out on blood. It is possible the XMRV virus integrates its genetic material into other tissues of the body, although this is not supported by the American findings.

Anthony Cleare, reader in psychiatric neuroendocrinology at King's College London, which collected the blood samples, said the apparent link between chronic fatigue syndrome and XMRV generated a lot of excitement among doctors and patients but the latest study had failed to replicate those results.
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
Hi Koan, a lot of readers might interpret it that way, but that is not how they would have meant it (i'll eat my foot if I am wrong!). Psyhciatric patients can be markedly unwell without it being accepted that they have have an organic condition.

Orla

Oh Orla, You be right!

I don't think you'll have to eat your foot but I think they misspoke.

There is a world of difference between thinking you are markedly unwell and actually, as they said we were, being markedly unwell. They went on at some length about the many ways in which we were not crazy and not markedly unwell in psychiatric terms. I don't think they can squish this into the abnormal/faulty (whatever it is) illness belief.

There is only so far you can bend the language before it breaks and reveals its intrinsic meaning. Too clever by half, is what they were, I think.
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
More from the wires:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-01/icl-nvi010510.php

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5inrHHwpLhcsS5o12h1PkCc57BaHw

And more from Mr Connor

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...r-researchers-must-work-together-1859004.html

Now another research group has failed to replicate the findings and three or four other teams are also believed to be having difficulty supporting the original results. There does not seem to be a clear link, if any, between XMRV and chronic fatigue syndrome, which affects some 250,000 people in Britain.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
No dissenting voice here either

Eureka Alert

New virus is not linked to chronic fatigue syndrome, suggests UK research

New UK research, published today in PLoS ONE, has not reproduced previous findings that suggested Chronic Fatigue Syndrome may be linked to a recently discovered virus. The authors of the study, from Imperial College London and King's College London, say this means that anti-retroviral drugs may not be an effective treatment for people with the illness.

An estimated three in 1000 people have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), or myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), experiencing severe physical and mental fatigue that is not alleviated by rest, together with other symptoms such as muscle pain, headache, joint pain and depression. Diagnosing CFS is difficult, as symptoms vary and there is no standard test. The fundamental cause of CFS is unknown and it is usually treated using rehabilitation techniques such as cognitive behavioural therapy or graded exercise therapy.

In October 2009, a group of US scientists published research in the journal Science that suggested that a recently discovered virus called XMRV could be linked to CFS. In their study, 68 out of 101 patients with the illness and 8 out of 218 healthy controls appeared to be infected with the virus.

However, in today's study, researchers found no evidence that patients with CFS had the XMRV virus, after analysing tissue samples from 186 patients with CFS using sensitive molecular testing techniques.

This more recent analysis showed no molecular evidence for XMRV in any of the samples from CFS patients. The researchers say this means that anti-retrovirals should not be used to treat CFS, as they would be unlikely to have an effect on the symptoms. However, several labs in the US now offer CFS patients treatments based on the earlier findings that linked the condition with XMRV.

Professor Myra McClure, one of the authors of the study from the Division of Medicine at Imperial College London, said: "Our research was carried out under rigorous conditions - we looked at samples from well-studied patients, and we used very sensitive testing methods to look for the virus. If it had been there, we would have found it. The lab in which we carried out the analysis had never housed any of the murine leukaemia viruses related to XMRV, and we took great care to ensure there was no contamination.

"We are confident that our results show there is no link between XMRV and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, at least in the UK. The US study had some dramatic results that implied people with the illness could be treated with anti-retrovirals. Our recommendation to people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome would be not to change their treatment regime, because our results suggest that anti-retrovirals would not be an effective treatment for the condition," added Professor McClure.

After reading the US study, clinical researchers from King's College London sent blood samples from 186 CFS patients to the Imperial Retrovirology Laboratory team. King's has been running an NHS service for CFS patients for nearly twenty years, and the previously stored samples came from patients had been fully investigated and examined, meaning that CFS was the correct diagnosis.

The Imperial scientists extracted the DNA from the samples and analysed it using a sensitive technique, called Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR), which can locate tiny fragments of virus DNA. The scientists analysed control samples of water at the same time to ensure there was no contamination. They also looked for a specific marker fragment of human DNA in the sample to make sure the technique was working.

The water controls contained no DNA, showing that the samples were not contaminated. All the test samples, from patients and healthy controls, contained the human DNA they looked for, suggesting the technique was working well.

Dr Anthony Cleare, Reader in Psychiatric Neuroendocrinology, one of the authors of the study from the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Clinic at King's College London, said: "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a serious and debilitating condition. It can also be extremely frustrating for people with the illness, as we have yet to identify its fundamental cause, or come up with any definitive treatments. The recent US study generated real excitement among doctors and patients alike as it seemed to open up a new line of research. Unfortunately, we have not been able to replicate those findings."

"It is important to emphasise that today's findings do not invalidate all previous research, some of which has shown that CFS can be triggered by other infective agents, such as Epstein Barr Virus or Giardia parasites. As ever in science, no single study is conclusive and there are lots of other research groups working on this at the moment. We await their results with interest," added Professor Simon Wessely, another author of the study from the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Clinic at King's College London.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
UK.Yahoo - no dissenting opinons

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100106/thl-doubt-cast-on-new-fatigue-theory-d831572.html?printer=1

Doubt cast on new fatigue theory
Wednesday, January 6 12:01 am

A new theory about the cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) has been thrown into doubt by British scientists. Skip related content

Last October a team of US experts published research indicating that the debilitating condition, also known as myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), can be triggered by a virus similar to HIV.

A study published in the journal Science linked cases of CFS with the recently discovered virus, called XMRV.

It suggested CFS could be treated with anti-retroviral drugs of the type given to patients with the HIV Aids virus. In light of the findings, several laboratories in the US have started offering treatment to CFS patients.

But now British researchers have conducted a new study which shows no evidence of XMRV playing a role in CFS.

The team analysed tissue samples from 186 patients with the condition using sensitive molecular testing techniques. No molecular evidence of XMRV was found in any of the samples tested.

The scientists say anti-retroviral drugs should not be given to people with CFS as they are unlikely to be effective.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome affects an estimated three in 1,000 members of the population, producing severe physical and mental tiredness that is not alleviated by rest. Other symptoms include muscle pain, headaches, joint pain and depression.

Although the condition is now recognised as a genuine and not imagined disorder, its cause remains a mystery.

Professor Myra McClure, from Imperial College London, one of the authors of the new study, said: "Our research was carried out under rigorous conditions - we looked at samples from well-studied patients, and we used very sensitive testing methods to look for the virus. If it had been there, we would have found it. The lab in which we carried out the analysis had never housed any of the murine (mouse/rat) leukaemia viruses related to XMRV, and we took great care to ensure there was no contamination. We are confident that our results show there is no link between XMRV and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, at least in the UK."
 

alice1

Senior Member
Messages
457
Location
Toronto
A study testing for evidence of XMRV infection in CFS patients in the United Kingdom has reported negative results. This is the first publication following the article in the top-ranked journal Science from researchers at the Whittemore Peterson Institute, the National Cancer Institute and Cleveland Clinic that garnered worldwide attention from the media and scientific community. The new report, published Jan. 6, 2010, in the open access online journal PLoS ONE, failed to detect XMRV in CFS, but should not be considered a valid attempt to replicate the findings described by Lombardi et al., in the Oct. 8, 2009 Science article.
The PLoS ONE paper by Otto Erlwein, Steve Kaye, Myra O. McClure, Jonathan Weber, Gillian Wills, David Collier, Simon Wessely and Anthony Cleare is titled, “Failure to Detect the Novel Retrovirus XMRV in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.” The investigators tested peripheral blood DNA from 186 routine clinic attendees who met 1994 (Fukuda) CFS case definition criteria and were well-characterized from participation in prior neuroendocrine and cognitive behavioral therapy studies. These 186 CFS patients were reported to be unwell for a median of four years with high levels of fatigue and disability.

I think I did it! woohoo.it's the small things in life isn't it.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
With all due respect, this assumption needs to be re-evaluated (I'm trying to be gentle here). Fuzzifying the CFS definition is the very modus operandus, the very essence of Reeves and Wesseley's "science", and has been for YEARS!

Fuzzying is one thing. To suddenly start excluding people that would normally be considered as having CFS because they have abnormal cortisol levels would be a whole different level. It's possible he's decided to do this, but it would be crazy, and totally self-defeating for him. He still might have done it - I really don't understand why he's mentioned it otherwise, but I'd be surprised if this was the case. If this study really did fail to pick up XMRV because he'd fiddled the selection criteria, he'd have ruined his career. No ammount of fuzzying would get him out of it. I'd be very surprised if he decided to do this.

Here is a quote from a currently being sold medical online textbook. I don't know if this helps or not.

Thanks. So Wessely thinks hydrocortisone supplements are helpful for some CFS patients? That's pretty different to the old stuff of his I've read.



I don't think it's unfair of them to try to discredit the WPI. The Science article seemed like an intentional slapping down of the psychiatric model. It's nice to see some real fighting over CFS for a change, ususally it's all so vague and limp that no-one even bothers to throw a punch. If the XMRV link hold up, the WPI will be able to hit back whenever they want.
 

Hysterical Woman

Senior Member
Messages
857
Location
East Coast
As Carl Sagan put, science in its best form is self regulating, when a study is published others will try and rip it apart. That's a healthy look as it means that only the most fool-proof and evidence based studies can get through. So lets hope those pirhanas are out in full force when they wake up tomorrow morning to this new study. ;)

Hi Eliot,

Unfortunately, Carl Sagan lived at a different time and focused on a different science. There is a huge amount of medical money (research, pharmaceutical, grant) and reputations (psych. vs. virals) at stake here. There will be less science and more politics in this situation.

Reminds me of the old Groucho Marx statement:

"Love goes out the door when money comes innuendo".

Welcome to our forums,

Maxine
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
New Scientist XMRV Imperial College

New Scientist is I think pretty respected (?). We got the first reaction from Dr. Mikovits; maybe it's not in Europe.

The XMRV polls here are actually referenced in this article:
none of 10 patients who used one company's test said they turned up positive for the virus, while six out of 12 people who took another set of tests offered by another lab said they were positive for XMRV.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18341-cfs-patients-in-uk-show-no-signs-of-suspect-virus.html

The theory that chronic fatigue syndrome could be caused by a virus that jumped from mice to people has been dealt a blow by a British study that has found no evidence of the virus in people diagnosed with CFS.

Scientists are also warning people with the condition of the dangers of dosing themselves with antiretroviral drugs.

CFS affects more than a million people in the US and a quarter of a million in the UK. Its symptoms include persistent, severe tiredness, but its cause remains mysterious and contentious.

The debate on its origins took a new twist in October, when DNA from xenotropic murine leukaemia virus-related virus (XMRV) was found in the blood of about two-thirds of 101 people with CFS, compared with just 4 per cent of healthy people (Science, DOI: 10.1126/science.1179052). The researchers, led by Judy Mikovits of the Whittemore Peterson Institute in Reno, Nevada, suggested that XMRV might be causing CFS.

Missing virus

Now a second study, led by Myra McClure of Imperial College London, has failed to find XMRV in blood samples from 186 people in the UK with CFS. "We do not share the conviction that XMRV may be a contributory factor in the pathogenesis of CFS, at least in the UK," McClure's team says.

XMRV is a retrovirus, and viruses of this type have a history of claims linking them to diseases, which have later been questioned – about 25 at the last count.

Mikovits stands by the conclusions in her paper. She suggests that XMRV may be less common in Europe and so might not be causing cases of CFS there.

At least one US lab is offering to test people with CFS for XMRV, while websites are abuzz with reports from patients who say they have been tested and queries about how to obtain zidovudine (AZT), the antiretroviral drug used to combat HIV.

Health warnings

"These are folks who've just gone and had the test done in a private lab," says Charles Shepherd, medical adviser to the ME Association in the UK, which provides support to people with CFS.

In lab experiments reported last month, AZT was found to block replication of XMRV (Virology, DOI: 10.1016/j.virol.2009.11.013). But Richard Baker, head of the group that wrote the official UK guidelines on CFS, warns patients against taking AZT, which can have side effects. "Anyone who uses it on themselves is taking a real risk with their health," he says. Mikovits says it is unlikely to be effective against CFS.

Negative hints

Other researchers are trying to further establish whether there is a link between XMRV and CFS, but have not yet published the results. There are hints that these results may also be negative.

The Robert Koch Institute (RKI) in Berlin, Germany, is also examining the link between XMRV and CFS. In November, its collaborators posted a short statement on the web saying that CFS patients had so far "rarely" tested positive for the virus. They later removed the statement.

According to Norbert Bannert, one of the virologists at the RKI, the statement was correct, but he adds: "It's not fair to give numbers when you're at the beginning of the investigation, and the first results have not yet been confirmed by an alternative test." He declines to give further details

McClure has also hinted that several studies due to be published soon have also found no link.

People with CFS who say they have been tested are less restrained. On one online message board, a handful of people have reported mixed results: none of 10 patients who used one company's test said they turned up positive for the virus, while six out of 12 people who took another set of tests offered by another lab said they were positive for XMRV.

If the virus link is not borne out, people with CFS are going to feel seriously disappointed, Shepherd warns. "I think people are going to feel very, very let down to put it mildly," he says.
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
Levi said:
Now you have all the mainstream UK media drinking the Wessely cool-aid. Are you still sure this is brilliant Parvo?

Parvo is thinking long game, I think, and he/she's right. In the short term we're going to take some hits.

This is really effective PR!

This is a nothing little study and it's all over the place.

We really have to play the media as well as the opposition does.
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
HEALTHY CONTROLS?? :eek: Whaaaa??? :worried: There is NO mention of healthy controls being part of their study. Am I missing this??? :ashamed:

I was wondering the same thing, Kim... I think both the Guardian and the Independent articles have some serious problems in journalistic objectivity and quality science reporting. Note that the Guardian article is written by the same reporter who wrote those earlier, ridiculous pro-Wessely articles.

"The authors say there is no evidence to justify testing people with CFS for the virus"

This sounds like they're going out of their way to tell people NOT to get tested. Now why would an objective scientist do that? Remember the wording in the BBC release, that they made this public because they were "concerned" that people were getting too hopeful about the WPI findings... Well that's a nice public service on their part. Somehow I think their real "concern" is for the ME/CFS paradigm in the UK shifting from psychosomatic to organic.
 
G

George

Guest
Note to CAA

Note: Issue press release on Jan 6th!

eek, I can't believe how fast this thing went viral! I've got like 9 google alerts on press releases in the last 1/2 hour! I think Wessley et al must have e-mailed every possible news outlet.

@parvo, dude can I steal your ears? Them is some great ears! (pant, pant, pant, drool)