• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Strong Mental Reaction to B Vitamins. What would that be?

Messages
23
Last edited:

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
cobain_justinsane

Detailed reply, thank you!..

I also feel the same, this is very rare and for me, human brain being very complicated, we can not drive conclusions from a few samples.

However, getting more information does not hurt and there can be benefits for me, and for all parties having symptoms (even reading these later), reading between the lines, and who knows, extracting a very small detail would change everything for some of us, or make a little difference - or avoid some problems. Since we are not a large "pool of samples" this is not highly certain and will not give abstract conclusions, but every person's experience would add up a bit. And people can relate or fit these to themselves finding similarities or differences. So, in a very complicated matter like this (human brain) every bit of information is essential for us. Thanks for giving the details. I also posted to the other members you mention, to their profiles, in case they would like to join the discussion.

In my case, even I do not get methylcobalamin, the blood level Methylcobalamin from past intakes stored in the liver already is enough to make me hypomanic. I know this from the experience that when I take 1mg daily it really increases substantially - so blood level is already making an impact for me. For that matter in mind, at first I thought Caledonia's suggestions to take Adenyl + Hydroxy half by half. But thinking for some moment - I guess this would be risky. You might say "what". I mean, if my other mental symptoms disappeared with the help of only Methylcobalamin form (although it gives a hypomania side effect) , and if I get other forms of B12 for a few months to test, then they would be stored in the liver for 2 years and it would complicate things locking me long term with these tests - so I am a bit reluctant. However Caledonia's suggestion is vital for me. Knowing that Methylcobalamin can really differ from other forms of B12 (Hydroxy, Adeno, Cyano etc.) in terms of effects, something are more clear for me and now makes more sense. So every input is essential in that case.

I am not just talking about Methylcobalamin - also other forms of Active B's are too effective. May be if I had other forms of B12 in my blood - other active B's (quatrefolic,active b3, active b6 etc.) might not have been that much effective. Or vice versa - with an other form of B12 I can have more balanced happiness without the need of anti manic medications - and with a possibility of relatively lower future risk. With common sense, I can decide and test diligently.

I took a look and 23andMe site. They put a notification box:

"23andMe provides ancestry-related genetic reports and uninterpreted raw genetic data. We no longer offer our health-related genetic reports. If you are a current customer please go to the health page for more information. Close alert."

Does this mean that the tests you mention are no longer available? I am asking because they might be doing the same test but might have put the warning to avoid legal percussion and responsibilities. Would it be possible that same tests you mention would still be done by them? I am not asking them - for the above mentioned possibility they might respond negatively although they still give the results. Do you think I can purchase the kit?

boo85

Re transholocobalamin test: I have blood level of I guess, nowadays, much over than 1000. So - it might be apparent that cells already can have enough B12 inside them. So it might not give any information if my cells can contain enough B12 at "normal serum levels" and this might not give sufficient information if my b12 metabolism is not working well? Is my logic correct? If my logic is correct - then should I wait for my serum levels to drop further to get more accurate results?

Hi detharlwy,

I don't know where you get yourB12 information but in my opinion the statements made about it are so messed up and/or outright wrong that it will be a miracle if you have any good results based on any of that understanding. There is a lot of mythology about b12 in circulation and it doesn't aid anybody in getting well. I can't guarantee that you can get good results based on any understanding but I think you can improve your odds a lot with better understanding of how it actually works. And there isn't a B12 test you can get that will give you any useful information for actually healing from Me/CFS/FMS. Be in good health
 
Messages
23
Thanks for your help, Fredd. Actually I am not a Me/CFS/FMS . I guess you missed that part and made a wrong assumption that I did not have a result. However, my problem is different (psychiatric- may be I did not put that very clear in the post so just skimming the post would not give an idea) and I am testing on a trial and error basis. And it simply and really works. Actually quite after some time I treated the illness, I found out there are many case reports from hospitals for psychiatric patients and other academic information from "google scholar" that B supplement, although not quite frequent, treated the psychosis or depression. So there is a real science behind B Vitamins for the problem I do have. And it is notorius in the psychiatric and scientific world. It is very well known that B12 is the "brain vitamin" along with other B's. I am just trying to learn why the side effect of hypomania happens that happens to no one, and what would happen in the future so I am looking for people having first hand experience. For the reason that outcomes of positive changes in the long term is not established by scientific data because the side effect on me is hypomania and very rare. I can provide the links for academic research and case reports if you need, for psychosis and B's - however I believe that you did not read my post very carefully - and drove conclusion that I had Me/CFS and FMS. I found that it works for my problem. But the what would happen is the question. I think being a busy and experienced member of this forum (being busy can be the reason you might have missed my first post or just skimming it and the problem), somebody directed you to my post with a hope that you can answer my question. And I thank you for adding your comment - and I know that the topic of this forum is different however this place seems to be hosting one of the most concentrated "B" Vitamin discussion and being one of the most respected members of this forum my psychiatric issue is out of your area - however I would respect everyones input. At least this place is the best place I found. Yes - I am quite not a "deep research" type of personality - and as I told I found what works for me was only by trial and error, with tracking everything and deep analysis and through the information I received for the herbal supplements from scientific information. I am just trying to solve my problem. I just needed input on other people's experiences for the possibly unclear outcome. As there is no scientific data on the "side effect" I do have, I can not make a deep research on this issue - there aren't any cases on hypomania side effect of B's (in general, normal hypomania generally ends by a brief depression - if that's the case, this would be not be an end of the world). So I am looking for this alternative method of talking to other people having experience and learn what the reason would be. (If I solve this problem, and have a feeling of comfort, I will just skip this issue an move on. So I am just a guest here - though long term members here seem to be quite of help. If I solve this - then I will not deeply research this subject - though I respect people here who are combining their desire to cure or relieve their illness/syndromes/symptoms with an intellectual research hobby. That helps other people too - such as me. I can also help other when needed with my first hand experience. I will just be reading the links the other members provided.

Anyhow, for the other members information, I ordered the ME and 23 test.

That's all for now - and I will give information on what I find out. Will keep everyone informed.
 
Last edited:

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@detharlwy @dead.money

OK somewhere in cyberspace floats my original reply ....
Anyway, hi. I don't get to this site very often anymore as I have recovered from Bipolar by treating mercury toxicity and have made an 80% recovery from ME by addressing my methylation issues.
I am going to make some general comments but I seem to be on a unique path and what I say may have little relevance to your situation.

By the time we get to where we are we'll have to accept that there are no more easy answers...no silver bullets, and no magic elixirs that will bring back what we had.
We are caught up in a dance and are spun from partner to partner..... infections (1 - 2- 3 4+), digestive problems malabsorption, dysbiosis and leaky gut. Altered and pissed-off immune systems, autoimmune, endocrine.....and the dance goes on and on....

n=1 is hardly creates a platform of authority. To complicate things further I have had to dance with multiple partners at the same time and sometimes am not sure what it was that ultimately helped. But I will share my guesses with you. And some of these I refer to as the "rungs in my ladder".

My personal story speaks to Bipolar and ME occurring in one individual. Both have low glutathione theories as does Hyperplastic Polyposis (100+ polyps, colon out in 2013). Glutathione production relies upon a methylation system that is getting things done.

What else relies on methylation? BH4 production - a co-factor for the conversion of amino acids to neurotransmitters and tyrosine to T4 and ultimately T3.

Repairs of myelin sheaths = proper neuron function. My dance partners are lining up :)

My diagnosis was Brittle Rapid-Cycling Bipolar II, Mixed States.
- I think that it responded to the thyroid meds. My Dr wouldn't treat - my TSH was 3.x and there were some antibodies. The first I got on board was taken from my wife's script.

- everyone with Bipolar and methylation problems should be checked for heavy metal toxicity. There is no reason to expect optimal recovery from anything but particularly a psychiatric diagnosis if there are toxins on board. This may, or may not be especially true if a person does not respond as expected to Bipolar meds. Treating mercury toxicity with antipsychotics will never be more than partially effective.

- mercury interferes with the availability of glutathione a number of ways. Low glutathione has been linked to expression of bipolar symptoms

- mercury is stored in astrocytes making them sick. Astrocytes convert T4 to T3 (active form) for the neurons
- highest concentration of T3 receptor sites in limbic and norepinephrine systems. Both key in bipolar.

Methylation is tricky. There are those with Bipolar who do not tolerate B12 etc. It revs them and/or makes them irritable. COMT (magnesium is your friend) will aggrevate this. I could not get enough mB12 and I am left wondering if this in anyway has to do with moving against mercury for 18 months (and suffering) first.
The is all conjecture. But since mercury messes up methionine synthase and this is where B12 is a co-factor, maybe |by removing enough mercury B12 was able to do what it needed to. It doesn't help to keep pouring gas in if the motor ain't running.
(I also am TCN2++ and have other transport issues. While there is little to prove that this has a major impact on transport into the cells that I am aware of, it certainly has been shown in studies to be related to frailty. There is something going on with it alone or in combination with other genetic/epigenetic factors IMHO).

So that's it. I can go on and on but I bore myself. Yes, when you recover to a certain point, you will get tired about thinking of your health. And I want to end this (I will come back to see if anyone has questions) with a comment. My personality changed. I am on hydrocortisone as mercury took out my adrenals and it does not pay for me to get too excited about the little stuff.
I also lost that suspicious aspect of my thinking where I suspected other's motives. I used to be very quick to take offence or make the wrong assumptions about people and their intentions. Always on edge and waiting for the next reason to jump to conclusions and that was a mercury thing.
Get Amalgam Illness by Cutler there is a description of the mercury personality that will really hit home for some.
Probably left more questions than answers behind.... brad
 
Messages
23
Hi Stridor and Picante.

Thanks for the replies.

Picante - I will use that link when the results arrive. My kit is on the way and I will send it back so it would take some time to get the results.

Stridor, we seem to have had a similar problem (psychiatric), although using different methods we appeared to have pursued the same route of thinking - using alternative methods other than concentrating on conventional medicine. In example, I also used Heavy Metal Intoxicants (Humifulvate Metal Shield was one of them.) I used many herbals and supplements for various purposes not only for chelation - but only targeting my mental health despite some of them having indirect link with brain (in example, digestion). And I am fully satisfied with the results. I am also not sure what affected how in many of them and I am sure on some of them however I am glad to have achieved a good result.

I read your post and got the main idea. I will re-read more times later, too find common points with myself and remember glutahione etc. and other things.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@ahmo
I am not sure what I can add to that discussion. I think that there are many reasons/causes for ME but the bottom line may be that whatever else is going on whether infection, toxicity or whatever, there will be mitochondrial involvement. It can be direct or indirect - like the decrease in function one might get with a drop in temperature or lowering of ph. Both of which visited me. Methylation drives too many processes not to be included in any discussion about energy production.
I think that it is inherently "wrong" to try to think of methylation as a separate process. It doesn't work like that in our body and it should not be captured that way by our minds. Sure for study purposes we have to look at it separately but when we are done remind ourselves that it is just one ingredient in the stew.
I my recovery I have come full-circle. I started out knowing little - went through this phase where I thought all was knowable and understandable and now I am back where I started. I know little :)
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
I my recovery I have come full-circle. I started out knowing little - went through this phase where I thought all was knowable and understandable and now I am back where I started. I know little :)
bow_down_before_you-960.gif
Brad, that makes you a rarity: a wise man. :heart:
 
Messages
23
OK. My Sample to 23Andme seem to be delivered to them until evening by USPS.

Until that time, when the results arrive, do you have additional recommendations for me to have it interpreted? I will used the above posters' suggested services. However, I will test other services too.

I found this list over there:

http://www.quora.com/Which-tools-can-be-used-to-analyze-23andMe-raw-data

Any additional services I should use? And - would the people help me interpret the analyzed data? If there is an extensive analysis for a fee that will make the analysis for me from the for the results from mthfr.net or Genetic Genie- I can pay a fee - Or will I be able to understand their results with a naked eye and a not-so-much-informed brain? I guess the people here will help to some extent to understand the ComT mutation from the results etc.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@detharlwy
This is just my opinon and hopefully others will weigh-in...unless of course they agree :) I would run the results through Sterling Hill's app at MTHFR.net and then try to wrap your mind around what they mean. Post them on this site...check old posts...search the web.....when you are at the place where you kind of get it, then pay for an interpretation from someone. I used Sterling Hill and a Dr someone. If you have a way to record the phonecall do it. Sterling can bury you and the other guy (I have his name somewhere) absolutely will. Sterling was a better value monetarily speaking.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Sterling's app is the one that I find most useful. I copied the report into a Word file so that I could add footnotes to explain things to myself. It turns out that you can also insert other snps into the tables if you find you need to focus on particular genes where there are problems.

I did Promethease, too, which is interesting (I'm at high risk for Alzheimer's and certain autoimmune diseases), but it doesn't tell you anything about methylation and doesn't tell you much about detoxification. It's linked to the snpedia database, which is full of studies on more "mainstream" medical issues, not the ones commonly experienced by ME/CFS patients.

Genetic Genie was worthless to me, since I got all that information and 10 times more from Sterling's app.
 
Messages
23
Yes. My results arrived. 23 And me says it is partial yet but I guess the remaining part is for calculating ancestrial?

I first used geneticgenie and MTHFR Support.

Ok. Here are my results. I see that I have no MTHFR Mutation? There seems to be a ComT Mutation? Of course definitely I will personally research. But there is no point not to ask here first.

Do you believe the Psychiatric symptoms and the response to Active B's relate with these results? If not - I won't be dissapointed - since I am sure that there is a big response to Active B's - the reasons might be elsewhere if not in my genes. I need not have to find it if it is apparent - though I can search more.

Also in my GeneticGenie results there are too many results with "no call" what does this mean?
 

Attachments

  • MTHFRSupport_Variant_Report_v2.0-genome_Emre_Deniz_Full_20150406024908.txt.pdf
    1.3 MB · Views: 28
  • Genetic Genie Methylation Analysis Results.zip
    24.9 KB · Views: 20

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
Wow that is a comprehensive panel for COMT activity they are giving now. Grrrr and I will have to pay again to get one of those for my husband and one for myself :mad:

Yes COMT is a complicating factor and makes one extremely sensitive to methyl donors.
 
Last edited:

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
For methylation support we rely on clinical evidence and self-experimentation. No time to wait for double-blinded research.
Yes, but self-reports here indicate that many people who should tolerate methyl groups, based on that hypothesis, do not. And vice versa.
 
Messages
23
I guess at first look, I have no MTHFR mutation (from geneticgenie). COM-T also looks fine. MTHFR.net results are a bit more complicated, however, I guess the results of that one also might not explain my extremely strange response to Active B's (or on the other words, acting more strangely without them) - two extreme points.

If I was unable to explain my response to methylation with those results, then there are other factors involved in my case. This would create another point of view who read these lines and have them to take a look at their results with another point of view. No matter what - there is already some weird response to B's whether mutations explain or not - at least for me. So If mutations are not clarifying the matter, other criterion such as my nervous system, brain etc. would be acting in a different way. So, myself as an example, not having mutation does not mean active B or methylation system is working properly just by examining DNA results.

Can anyone confirm that I do not have any extreme mutation compared to other people? Or my first look analysis is wrong?

And do my other mutations look healthy compared to other people? Actually I was expecting lots of "red"s, mutations considering my weird responses to meds and vitamins B's. May be a footnote I was an alien. :alien: But I look a bit normal.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
Yes, but self-reports here indicate that many people who should tolerate methyl groups, based on that hypothesis, do not. And vice versa.
That is why there is a forum to exchange experiences and trouble shooting, and I am thankful for the many folks posting and helping each other :angel:

Phoenix Rising is surely the best place for that :thumbsup: We try to figure out the effect of SNPs + infections + gut + environmental exposures

I reckon it would be so easy to just take a pill for my SNP profile if it was hard science!