Staph vaccine to treat CFS??

[hvac14400]

and then i come
but actually i was tryin to open this fokken underground lab's testosterone ampoule, with my bare fingers, and this lil sucker just exploded in my hand
but i've said "fokk it!", got all the oil from ampoule and injected it, despite possibility of gettin fine pieces of glass in it.

you just said screw it with the needle

yep - literally

with bare fingers again : )

 

[rosie26]

I've never seen a needle like that before. LOL.

 

[hvac14400]

@hvac14400
There are a number of studies by Russian researchers Akatov A.K. and Semenova I.B. which examine the ability of purified Staphylococcus toxoid to modulate the immune system when there is an infection with coxsackievirus B.

i had a phone conversation with her today
she said you not supposed to use adsorbed staph anatoxin version:

Адсорбированный анатоксин нельзя применять в лечебных схемах (если колоть через день или 2 ) из-за его реактогенности.

also she considers Likopid as a good non microbial option too, if our aim is to boost immune system. but as well as in case with staph vaccine we must wait 3-4 months atleast, before any visible effects will start to show up.

 

[Hip]

she said you not supposed to use adsorbed staph anatoxin version:

Very pleased you were able to get in contact with Dr Irina Semenova. The Google translation of her statement is:

The adsorbed toxoid cannot be used for therapeutic vaccination (if injecting every other day or once in a 3 days), because of its reactogenicity.

Wikipedia defines reactogenicity as:

the property of a vaccine of being able to produce common, “expected” adverse reactions, especially excessive immunological responses and associated signs and symptoms—fever, sore arm at injection site, etc.

Other manifestations of reactogenicity typically assessed in such trials include bruising, redness, induration, and swelling.

Typically, reactogenicity is seen in the presence of an adjuvant (chemical additive intended to enhance the recipient's immune response to the vaccine antigen), but can also occur with non-adjuvanted vaccines.

Reactogenicity describes immediate short-term reactions to vaccines, not long term sequelae.

So I guess Dr Semenova is saying you should not use the adsorbed toxoid vaccine because it creates too much reactogenicity.



One of the reactogenicity symptoms I am experiencing at the injection site is a slight hardening of the tissues just under the skin. If I press the injection site, I can feel a lump of slightly hardened tissue around 10 millimeters in diameter, just a few millimeters under my skin. This lump feels like soft rubber, or like a blob of Blu-Tak, and it still present even weeks after I took the injection. The lump is not visible to the eye though; you can only feel with your finger. I am not sure how long it will take to disappear.

 

[IntelligentImpulse]

I've never seen a needle like that before. LOL.

I'd be very afraid of sticking anything like that up my arm.

 

[Undisclosed]

and then i come
but actually i was tryin to open this fokken underground lab's testosterone ampoule, with my bare fingers, and this lil sucker just exploded in my hand
but i've said "fokk it!", got all the oil from ampoule and injected it, despite possibility of gettin fine pieces of glass in it.



yep - literally

with bare fingers again : )

You do know there are quite a few techniques to open glass ampoules without them exploding and without a chance of cutting yourself. You might want to consider practicing some sterile technique when you are injecting -- you can get some nasty infections if you don't.

 

[hvac14400]

Very pleased you were able to get in contact with Dr Irina Semenova. The Google translation of her statement is:

The adsorbed toxoid cannot be used for therapeutic schemes (if injecting for one or two days), because of its reactogenicity.

small clarification here - if injecting every other day or once in a 3 days.

So I guess Dr Semenova is saying you should not use the adsorbed toxoid vaccine because it creates too much reactogenicity.

yes. probably because of this vaс may be used for children too.

 

[hvac14400]

You do know there are quite a few techniques to open glass ampoules without them exploding and without a chance of cutting yourself.

yea, now i know for sure : )
and that was like first/second experience in my entire life.

 

[Hip]

there are quite a few techniques to open glass ampoules without them exploding and without a chance of cutting yourself.

My understanding is that you use the small colored dot on the neck of the ampoule to hold the ampoule in the right alignment for snapping off the neck, as shown in this video.

There is a small scratch on the glass near this dot, which makes the ampoule break open easily and cleanly at that point if you hold the ampoule with the dot in the right place.

 

[Undisclosed]

My understanding is that you use the small colored dot on the neck of the ampoule to hold the ampoule in the right alignment for snapping off the neck, as shown in this video.

There is a small scratch on the glass near this dot, which makes the ampoule break open easily and cleanly at that point if you hold the ampoule with the dot in the right place.

You can still end up breaking the ampoule into pieces. You need to put something between the ampoule and your skin to break it safely. We used to use alcohol swab packages -- clean the skin with the alcohol swab, then put the end of the ampoule into the swab package and snap away. If the ampoule breaks, it is contained within the swab package. Plus, disposal is much safer as the glass is inside the package.

 

[Hip]

In a Conversation, @skwag also mentioned that some people like to use filter needles, which are hypodermic needles that contain a tiny filter, to prevent any microscopic glass particles from the broken ampoule getting injected into the body. Apparently there is some theoretical (but not proven) concern that glass particles lodged in the body could cause chronic inflammation.

I have not seen any filter needles for sale in the UK, but @skwag told me you can buy them in the US here and here.

I am myself not really that concerned about this issue.

 

[Hip]

small clarification here - if injecting every other day or once in a 3 days.

OK, so Dr Irina Semenova is saying:

The adsorbed toxoid cannot be used for therapeutic vaccination (if injecting every other day or once in a 3 days), because of its reactogenicity.

However, for long term use, Gottfries's protocol involves taking a 1 ml vaccine injection just once every 4 weeks.

So maybe when the vaccine is used only once every 4 weeks, it might be OK to take the adsorbed vaccine (as well as the normal non-adsorbed vaccine) ?



Note On Therapeutic Vaccination

A conventional vaccine is to prevent you from catching a disease caused by an infection, whereas a therapeutic vaccine is one which induces an immune response that treats an infectious disease after you have caught it, or induces an immune response that treats cancer, allergies or autoimmune disease.

So in this case, where we are using a vaccine to treat ME/CFS, this is therapeutic vaccination.

 

[Valentijn]

Apparently there is some theoretical (but not proven) concern that glass particles lodged in the body could cause chronic inflammation.

It's not just theoretical ... there's been a lot of studies showing that the glass can get drawn into needles, be injected, and cause complications.

I have not seen any filter needles for sale in the UK, but @skwag told me you can buy them in the US here and here.

Using any different needle to draw from the ampoule is going to be a big improvement. A 21G needle, for example, results in fewer and smaller glass shards being drawn into the syringe. Then you pull off that needle and put in a fresh one for injecting.

 

[hvac14400]

@Hip

My understanding is that you use the small colored dot on the neck of the ampoule to hold the ampoule in the right alignment for snapping off the neck, as shown in this video.
There is a small scratch on the glass near this dot, which makes the ampoule break open easily and cleanly at that point if you hold the ampoule with the dot in the right place.

lol, Hip - that was underground lab product, look at the pic closely and you will notice, that the glass in the neck region is like 3 times thicker than it supposed to be. there was no way in hell to open this piece of crap without some manipulation at all, and even more properly. so after that "incident" i started using file, to saw through that fat f#kin neck before opening each ampoule.

However, for long term use, Gottfries's protocol involves taking a 1 ml vaccine injection just once every 4 weeks.
So maybe when the vaccine is used only once every 4 weeks, it might be OK to take the adsorbed vaccine (as well as the normal non-adsorbed vaccine) ?

i honestly don't know.
but look at my question #6 and her answer for it. tho she combined answers for questions 5 and 6 in a single phrase, so... i can ask her tomorrow about that.

@Kina

You can still end up breaking the ampoule into pieces. You need to put something between the ampoule and your skin to break it safely.

"who cares about injuries? we're freaks!"

 

[Hip]

It's not just theoretical ... there's been a lot of studies showing that the glass can get drawn into needles, be injected, and cause complications.

When I briefly looked into it, I found this document which concluded:

Due to the lack of recent published literature, no conclusions can be drawn on the incidence of complications from glass particle administration, or the cost-effectiveness of using a filtered needle when withdrawing medication from a glass ampoule.

The document does list a few older studies about glass particles from ampoules, but I did not find anything that seemed to suggest this was a major problem. If it were a problem, presumably filtered needles would be the norm when glass ampoules are used.

 

[Valentijn]

@Hip - I don't think the research has to be recent to be relevant. Glass ampoules and needles haven't changed much

 

[Hip]

I don't think the research has to be recent to be relevant.

Even with the research listed in that article, I couldn't see much there to indicate that glass particles commonly lead to problems. There must be many millions of people injecting from glass ampoules every day, so if it were a problem, I am sure there would be anecdotes online about granulomas appearing at injections sites as a result of glass particles.

That said, if I could find filter needles for sale in the UK, I'd probably buy them.

 

[Hip]

I just today found this document on the thermostability of vaccines, which suggests it is OK to leave toxoid vaccines at room temperature for several weeks.

This document said (on page 5) that toxoid vaccines are the most highly stable of all vaccines when exposed to heat (by contrast, polio vaccines are the least stable, and the most sensitive to heat).

And on page 12 it said:

Adsorbed diphtheria and tetanus toxoids tested in Poland showed:

A 50% decline in potency after 4 to 8 days at 53–55°C

A 50% decline in potency after 80 to 90 days at 45°C

A 50% decline in potency after 10 to 13 months at 35–37°C

A 50% decline in potency after 5 to 7 years at 20–25°C

The authors concluded that toxoids which were unintentionally left at room temperature up to two weeks can safely be used in humans without control potency testing.

So a toxoid vaccine could probably be left out at room a temperature of 20 to 25°C for 5 years, and still be reasonably OK (it only loses half its potency after 5 years at 20 to 25°C).

This suggests it should be perfectly OK to buy the Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine from rupharma.com (see this post), whose shipping takes around 2 weeks or so.

 

[hvac14400]

I just today found this document on the thermostability of vaccines, which suggests it is OK to leave toxoid vaccines at room temperature for several weeks.

and also that

They are stable at elevated temperatures, even for long periods of storage, but may change their appearance and lose potency when frozen.

which is clearly conflicting information, if prof G really refrigerates all his stuff and if staphypan contains aluminum.

 

[Hip]

which is clearly conflicting information,

I don't think this is conflicting information. Are you mis-translating the word "frozen" by any chance? Frozen in this context means a temperature at or below 0ºC, the freezing point of water.

The document is saying that toxoids vaccines are stable even when taken out of the refrigerator, but that these vaccines can be damaged when exposed to temperatures of 0ºC and below.