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Professor Ron Davis's response to Naviaux study, including Q and A with Dr Naviaux

Messages
6
Pregnancy involves a highly anabolic state. Its accelerated metabolism. Maintaining hypometabolism in that state might be very difficult. However pregnancy might itself wind up as a trigger for hypometabolism, at least theoretically. Once the pregnancy ends there might be a rebound. I would like to know if anyone who improved during pregnancy was better or worse off after the pregnancy ended.

I run a support group for parents with ME and many members find the have improvements during the second trimester, feel worse again in the last few weeks but often improvements continue with breastfeeding and pregnancy may trigger a remission.

We also have some members who are worse during pregnancy, or who's ME started during or post pregnancy.

Apparently people who are underweight may have a lower metabolism during pregnancy to preserve energy, and I also found this link on pregnancy metabolism that seems to echo the pattern many see. http://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/bodily-changes-during#respiratory-and-metabolic-changes
 
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Never Give Up

Collecting improvements, until there's a cure.
Messages
971
Pregnancy involves a highly anabolic state. Its accelerated metabolism. Maintaining hypometabolism in that state might be very difficult. However pregnancy might itself wind up as a trigger for hypometabolism, at least theoretically. Once the pregnancy ends there might be a rebound. I would like to know if anyone who improved during pregnancy was better or worse off after the pregnancy ended.
I have read many personal accounts of women who improved during pregnancy, but after the pregnancy was over, were much worse than they were before the pregnancy.
 
Messages
6
Breastfeeding increases lipid metabolism, this was one of the metabolism pathways to be most affected wasn't it?

I have read many personal accounts of women who improved during pregnancy, but after the pregnancy was over, were much worse than they were before the pregnancy.

From my experience this isn't always true and is complicated by the fact the mother has a larger activity demand on her with caring for the baby. Many have improved symptoms for at least 6 months post birth.

There has been very little study on pregnancy and ME so finding hard facts will be nearly impossible.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,743
Location
South East England, UK
I have read many personal accounts of women who improved during pregnancy, but after the pregnancy was over, were much worse than they were before the pregnancy.

It was just after my 2nd pregnancy that the trouble with my legs started big time. That was in 1975, The district nurse took it very seriously because I had had a stillborn baby with a genetic abnormality which meant I had put on 2 stones in weight, most of which was fluid. From memory the symptoms I got were similar to the POTS which I started suffering from much more regularly in 1996 although the many other symptoms of ME/CFS didn't really start till 1979. She told me to ensure my legs were always elevated to help with the pain and stiffness I felt in my legs. I do think this was connected to me going on to develop ME/CFS.

Pam
 

Jenny

Senior Member
Messages
1,388
Location
Dorset
Pregnancy involves a highly anabolic state. Its accelerated metabolism. Maintaining hypometabolism in that state might be very difficult. However pregnancy might itself wind up as a trigger for hypometabolism, at least theoretically. Once the pregnancy ends there might be a rebound. I would like to know if anyone who improved during pregnancy was better or worse off after the pregnancy ended.

For what it's worth, I first developed ME when I was 3 months pregnant with my second child. I was mostly bedridden for the next 3 months, then almost normal until my daughter was about 9 months old, then a pattern of relapse and remission for the next 33 years.
 

Manganus

Senior Member
Messages
166
Location
Canary islands
I was wondering in regards to this study:

How quickly does anyone think there could be something to restore our health?
Would the improvement in health happen quickly or slowly over time?
Would it be more trying different things to see what works?
Would it be an on going treatment?
Would we be completely restored (to the age we are now) as if we never had ME (not counting having to build up muscle strength...)?
Would there be areas of the body affected and harmed by all the complications of this disease (probably), especially living with it for so long?

As many here I'm struggling financially, decisions I make at this moment in time I would want to take into account the possibility, probability and likely time frame of these unknowns. I can't stop thinking about this study! This is exciting. As always there's hope that anything can change for the better at any moment with help, discovery and treatment.

Any ideas and speculations?

This is truly the most promising piece of research I've seen.
Yet, it's almost impossible to speculate about your questions.

My guess is that (if we are lucky, and that's an important "if") these findings herald diagnostic tools rather than treatments. (Treatment will follow, in the long run.)

But IF diagnostic methods are developed and generally accepted, then that means that our situation will be improved a lot, also without any established treatment.

Doctors and other care givers will finally have a good label to put on us. And support instead of conflict will grow out of that.

Let's say that we in maybe five years have an established diagnostic test.
Then treatments based on this new understanding are likely to show up in the following ten years, or so.

We will not get our lost years back, but if we assume that most of us today have a body (or specific tissues) that seem to be 30, 50 or 70 years older than what's written on the birth certificate, then maybe a working treatment will cut that in half?
 

Never Give Up

Collecting improvements, until there's a cure.
Messages
971
I just saw this on the Naviauxlab site(don't recall seeing it here):

Q8. Since mitochondria have two main jobs in the cell—energy metabolism and cellular defense—is it possible the one function can be overactive at the expense of the other?
Yes. This is a key concept. Our lab classifies all complex chronic disease as being the result of either mitochondrial underfunction or mitochondrial overfunction. Each type has both genetic and environmental causes, but environmental causes outnumber genetic causes in the clinic 10:1. Only expert centers in mitochondrial medicine will typically see the many genetic forms of mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and metabolic disorders. Most academic centers will see more of the “ecogenetic” mitochondrial disorders caused principally by environmental factors. These disorders range from autism to asthma, depression and autoimmune diseases, to Parkinson and Alzhemier disease, and many more.
Mitochondria lie at the hub of the wheel of metabolism, coordinating over 500 different chemical reactions as they monitor and regulate the chemical milieu of the cell. It turns out that when mitochondria detect “danger” to the cell, they shift first into a stress mode, then fight mode that takes most of the energy-producing metabolic functions of mitochondria off line. Even normal exercise stresses mitochondria transiently and reminds the cell how to heal. Cells “go glycolytic” under conditions of stress, using oxygen less and sugar more for energy production. Mitochondria are highly dynamic in the cell. They will fuse with one another and divide, moving about the cell, changing their location according to cellular needs. Sometimes mitochondria will proliferate so a cell has more mitochondria than normal. Other times they will become hypersensitive to minute changes in one or more chemicals in the environment, overreacting to a stimulus that would normally be undetected by cells that have a normal mitochondrial setpoint.

What does all this mean? It means that mitochondria don’t do just one thing. Sometimes, when one function is overactive the other is decreased. Energy production and cellular defense are two sides to the same coin—when you are looking at one side, the other side is temporarily hidden. Mitochondrial cannot perform both energy and defense functions at 100% capacity at the same time. Health requires a dynamic balance of both these functions. It is plausible that when a particular patient seems to benefit from long-term use of a drug known to be toxic to mitochondria, that the drug helps rebalance cell defense and cell energy functions by decreasing the over-activity of one function thereby permitting an increase in an underactive function. My experience is that this is rare in CFS, but exceptions occur and are important to understand if doctors are to get better at treating all patients. Both patients and doctors should carefully evaluate the pros and cons of long-term antimicrobial therapy if the signs of an objective infection have disappeared. Any drug has the potential to be therapeutic or toxic.
 

Never Give Up

Collecting improvements, until there's a cure.
Messages
971
Dr. Naviaux mentions
metabolism of a 25-year old male is different from a 35-year old male, and categorically different from a 25-year old female. In each decade of life there are many metabolic changes that occur as part of normal development and aging.

Most of the personal accounts of improvement to relatively high functioning levels(still requiring a lot of rest, pacing and meds, but able to work or go to school) are from adolescents who took antivirals and antibiotics. Perhaps a convergence of mitochondrial developmental stage and medication explains why it doesn't work for everyone.
 

Tuha

Senior Member
Messages
638
Dr. Naviaux mentions

Most of the personal accounts of improvement to relatively high functioning levels(still requiring a lot of rest, pacing and meds, but able to work or go to school) are from adolescents who took antivirals and antibiotics. Perhaps a convergence of mitochondrial developmental stage and medication explains why it doesn't work for everyone.

maybe there is also another posibility which is not that difficult. Maybe if we give to the body right conditions - our body is often able to heal. I think in our case is the most important to be in our energy limits and then the body simply need a time to heal.

For example in my case I have 16 years ME. First 8 years I had a modest for of ME - I could work full time but I pushed myself all the time through the limits. Then I crashed and spent 2 years almost housebound. I didnt do too much for my treatement I just tried to relax as much as possible and maybe I tried to experimentise with my diet. After the crash during the last 8 years I slowly recover. it´s often strange I feel 1-2 years the same and then from one day to another there is a 10 % improvent without doing anything special. So maybe our body heal slowly somehow if you give the good conditions and it doesnt have to be ATB or AV
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
maybe there is also another posibility which is not that difficult. Maybe if we give to the body right conditions - our body is often able to heal. I think in our case is the most important to be in our energy limits and then the body simply need a time to heal.

That might work in the beginning but if it has gone to severe more is needed. Even after 20 yeqars of improvement I need to take the immunemodulator every day. When I forget once the next morning I have a huge hangover and it takes a week or longer to get to the former stage.
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
That might work in the beginning but if it has gone to severe more is needed. Even after 20 yeqars of improvement I need to take the immunemodulator every day. When I forget once the next morning I have a huge hangover and it takes a week or longer to get to the former stage.

Different things might work for different people too.
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
Hey guys,

I am noting down your questions, whether they may be answerable at this time or not :)

A first list has already been sent to Dr Naviaux, who will answer when he gets a chance. Many of the questions overlap and so the answers may aswell.

Just wanted you to know that I am noting all of these down-thankyou for being so involved and interested! (Where is the rock and roll emoji?!)


B