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Physical effects of a reconditioning programme in a group of chronic fatigue syndrome patients

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
Or rather people having a different illness altogether.

I know someone more severely affected than me, but we both get PEM. Having been an athlete before I fell ill, I have tried repeatedly to exercise in the hope that my body will adapt and grow stronger, but it seems only to have grown weaker.

I simply do not recognise this whole business of improving strength and endurance through increasing exercise without aggravating symptoms. That has categorically not been possible for me since I became ill, however much I've wanted it to be and however much other people have apparently believed it to be.
I'm sure that experience is true for a lot of us in the early stages of ME. In my first year of ME I often tried to start being active again, building up slowly. It's the right approach for many illnesses, so it's what many people would naturally try before they work out what's going on with ME. After months of this approach making us worse, not better, we manage to work out it's not such a good idea.

Having learnt that from bitter experience, it's extremely annoying to be told that, despite your own experience, despite what you've learnt from other sufferers, despite what you've learnt from the latest research, you just need to push through your false illness beliefs and build up slowly. I don't know how anyone with a moral compass or just a willingness to listen or learn from others could be involved in publishing such bullshit.
 

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
Just an observation on misdiagnosis and PACE, since this thread is busy discussing the problem in another trial of rehabilitation through exercise. Do you realize their published claims amount to saying they followed 640 patients for 3 years without needing to change a single diagnosis?
 

AndyPR

Senior Member
Messages
2,516
Location
Guiding the lifeboats to safer waters.
As well as all the important points everybody else is highlighting with this study, the phrase "We don't found changes in the CG." stood out. Do they mean they didn't find any changes in the control group (the most likely meaning)? But they could have meant to say that they found changes in the control group - unlikely given the rest of the summary but still possible. I understand about English potentially being a second language but still, it just helps to reduce my trust in these findings even further.
 

panckage

Senior Member
Messages
777
Location
Vancouver, BC
Or rather people having a different illness altogether.
I have mild CFS (i can work part time) and find cardio and strength training have helped me quite a bit... Although stimulants are necessary for me to do this. It's very possible this has increased my crashing (i get really bad brain fog so hard to be sure about anything) but it has allowed me to do regular activities again. I even go on dates a couple times a month. Whenever I have a particularly good day, the next day is almost always a particularly bad....

I've had to limit my life so much to have some success in what I do in my life but the tradeoffs are definitely worth in it in my case.

So it could be that the patients have some other illnesses, but as someone with mild CFS their results match my own anecdotal experience. That being said though being able to make to the clinic 12 weeks in a row to exercise would challenge even me I think... I think we will both agree more research is needed!
 

Aurator

Senior Member
Messages
625
I have mild CFS (i can work part time) and find cardio and strength training have helped me quite a bit... Although stimulants are necessary for me to do this. It's very possible this has increased my crashing (i get really bad brain fog so hard to be sure about anything) but it has allowed me to do regular activities again. I even go on dates a couple times a month. Whenever I have a particularly good day, the next day is almost always a particularly bad....

I've had to limit my life so much to have some success in what I do in my life but the tradeoffs are definitely worth in it in my case.

So it could be that the patients have some other illnesses, but as someone with mild CFS their results match my own anecdotal experience. That being said though being able to make to the clinic 12 weeks in a row to exercise would challenge even me I think... I think we will both agree more research is needed!
It's heartening to hear that you experience a positive training effect, in that increasing activity has increased your capacity for activity.

This is simply not the way things have been in my case. In spite of multiple attempts to increase my exercise load since I came down with the URT infection that coincided with the start of my illness over three years ago I have never been able to increase my capacity for activity; the correlation I've found is rather the contrary one: that increasing my activity reduces my capacity for activity, not just in the short term but in the long term.

Before my illness started I was a dedicated amateur athlete, training and racing 10-15 hours a week, but the moment I came down with this illness the whole world of positive training effects and steady improvements as a result of pushing the boundaries was turned on its head. I am not presently deconditioned, but I have a woefully small capacity for physical exercise, and however hard I've tried nothing I've done has been able to change that for the better. The premise of studies like the present one is simply meaningless for me, and I'm sure many others.

As TiredSam says, it's immensely frustrating when you find how difficult it is to convince anyone that you've not simply discovered the attractions of lying on the sofa all day, but on the contrary that you have to battle daily just to do simple things and at the same time live with the hideous reality of enforced and never ending incapacity, not to mention discomfort. How anyone can think an obviously rational person like myself would choose such a life of unquiet incapacity in preference to the active and fulfilling life I led right up until the moment I fell ill is beyond me. It's implausible in the extreme, and only those people who choose to ignore the full facts of my case could think that way.

Sadly quite a few people routinely do ignore the full facts of the case with practically all the ME/CFS patients they meet, and chief among them are the people who devised the treatments for ME/CFS that are so lamentably unfit for purpose in most patients' cases and yet have become the approved standard treatments in the UK.
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
We need a biomarker/more research/more funding/more advocacy.

I am get tired of the CFS guessing game. I believe if you have true ME than you adhere to all CCC Criteria/ICC and have all other diseases ruled out than this should qualify you for study purposes.....and this is why we need more money...

With true ME attempts at activity make people worse overall. Treatment for some can stop this cycle and improve functionality. I just dont get why people keep wasting time and money on this BS...GET gets you worse off in end.....i tried kept getting worse....i know this isonly my experience but maybe its time to start doing more advocay and pressing people who put out these studies
 
Messages
58
Having spoken with doctors and physical therapists who've dealt with CFS patients over the years, there's often a gap in understanding regarding exercise. They're accustomed to seeing deconditioning after a) a severe disease; b) physical trauma; or c) an extended period of sedentary lifestyle. In cases like this, there's always some submaximal level of effort (eg leg lifts with partial assistance by a therapist) that patients can start from to build up to functional again. This, then, is the narrative they are accustomed to, and seek to apply to CFS patients.

My experience with CFS (anecdotal, of course) for those who have milder cases (times when they can work part or full time, do household chores, but flare and might not recover to a normal daily activities level for months) is that clinicians need to be taught a new narrative, similar to the relapsing/remitting model of MS. Just like these MS patients have periods of reduced motor control during a relapse, which can't be forced to improve through willpower or by practicing a motor control activity, CFS patients have times where there is no submaximal, sustainable level of physical activity (or it can only be recognized in hindsight, after that threshold has already been passed). By the same token, a CFS patient's body will tell them which day they feel up to, for example, going for a walk, and it will usually be correct. This is often the start of the period when some stamina gains start to be seen again. The rapid return to a patient's normal levels of activity pre-flare (relapse, crash...) often puts the lie to deconditioning in the case of CFS, as it occurs much more rapidly than true deconditioning usually does. This would also similar to relapsing/remitting MS, where patients who simply could not attain their normal level of motor control regain most or all of their pre-relapse level again.

This is, of course, part of what makes CFS so hard to research and treat. Like any mechanic or tech support worker will tell you, it's almost always the intermittent problems that are the toughest to fix, because you can't take a defined set of steps to define the issue, or to fix it. Studies like this are going to capture the patients in remission mode, akin to taking the car to your the mechanic on the day it's not making that noise.

I really believe that, in a remission phase, there is a regular (even if it is only once a week) level of physical exertion that can improve stamina and exercise capacity over time. However, it won't be in the form of a standard PT exercise plan. Instead, it would need to be more like sessions with a long-term personal trainer, or primary caregiver. This person would have to be able to help a patient set realistic goals and have in their repertoire a series of tools to achieve them, like a PT would. However, this would also need to be someone who has also spent a lot of time with the patient, has developed a rapport with them and a familiarity with their body, and who can both adjust the plan as a patient expresses concerns vocally, and recognize subvocal cues when the patient is at or past their threshold. Personalized treatment like this, while advocated by specialized CFS clinics, is neither easy nor cheap. As a result, until the underlying molecular mechanisms which cause CFS are understood, we will always have studies using these cookie cutter approaches to rehabilitation.
 

Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
Like any mechanic or tech support worker will tell you, it's almost always the intermittent problems that are the toughest to fix, because you can't take a defined set of steps to define the issue, or to fix it.
Ex-tech here confirming this.

Intermittent faults are the worst of all to deal with. You can spend hours, days, even weeks chasing one down, and still not find it. :bang-head:

Doesn't matter so much if it is a family's 3rd TV, etc. But for critical stuff, like expensive medical equipment that can't be out of service for long but also can't go back into service without being definitely fixed, it is a nightmare. :eek:
 

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
Ex-tech here confirming this.

Intermittent faults are the worst of all to deal with. You can spend hours, days, even weeks chasing one down, and still not find it. :bang-head:

Doesn't matter so much if it is a family's 3rd TV, etc. But for critical stuff, like expensive medical equipment that can't be out of service for long but also can't go back into service without being definitely fixed, it is a nightmare. :eek:
Same thing applies to aircraft and rockets.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
Our single biggest problem is disease definition.
If we could all unite and campaign for one thing it should be one and only one definition. All other definitions should be discarded and any studies based on them discredited redefined or retracted.

If we were solving this as a typical problem solving exercise I am sure this is the first step that would be done.
 

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
There is a condition which shows up in athletes called overtraining syndrome. In this the result of intense training is a decrease in performance, among other problems. Two factors causing the problem are muscle damage which is not given a chance to heal, and exercise beyond aerobic threshold. You might check on training advice for sprinters nearing competition. For short sprints holding your breath saves energy for performance; there isn't time for aerobic metabolism to produce much new energy from oxygen that is not already in blood.

The two problems are related because localized tissue hypoxia can easily lead to muscle fibers becoming fatigued, cramping and tearing. This brings us to the central issue of anaerobic threshold. Unfortunately, there is considerable dispute about exactly what the term means, though any increase in power output after reaching VO2max is probably the result of anaerobic metabolism. What happens to particular muscles varies as circulation changes. The fact that sports professionals disagree should alert you to the difficulty of guessing when you are beyond anaerobic threshold. Adjusting training to match the requirements of peak performance is tricky. Thresholds move up and down as training progresses and external or internal conditions change, as with infections.

One finding that is easy to confirm is that ME/CFS patients have remarkably low anaerobic thresholds. A second factor is that they have even less ability than healthy people to judge that they have exceeded this, because they are constantly getting signals like fatigue or pain. A third factor is that patients clear waste products from anaerobic metabolism like lactate more slowly, as shown in the dramatic difference in patients and healthy controls on a 2-day cardiopulmonary exercise test. There are probably still more differences, but that is quite enough.

There is another factor introduced by the narrow focus of most professionals in rehabilitation. I've had the experience of asking to talk to the person in charge of rehab for a patient recovering from a very serious infection. They brought their records, and went over how the course of treatment was progressing. After they mentioned one particular day with good results, I asked if they were aware the patient had been found in a near comatose state and barely responsive after returning to her hospital room. This was a surprise. The collapse had been discovered by a visitor, who reported it to the nurse's station, but since the patient improved with a modest amount of oxygen, nothing about the episode had been communicated to the physical therapist.

The therapist was not thinking about a collapse by a patient who was able to leave treatment under her own power, let alone the possibility this would have aftereffects lasting days. The same blindspot affects cardiologists who write "patient shows good exercise tolerance" on a chart after a cardiac stress test on a treadmill, with absolutely no idea what would happen the next day.
 
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jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
It certainly is frustrating to see the endless parade of useless exercise studies. Even a properly conducted study will never show more than a modest effect for a subgroup of mild patients.

Can one imagine the aspirin manufacturers conducting study after study trying to prove that aspirin is an adequate treatment for migraine attacks? Yes they could show some pain relief for a few patients, but aspirin will never abort an episode like Imitrex or prevent a migraine. Eventually even the idiotic publishers would (I hope!) figure out that a few studies showing modest results are probably enough.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
It certainly is frustrating to see the endless parade of useless exercise studies. Even a properly conducted study will never show more than a modest effect for a subgroup of mild patients.

Can one imagine the aspirin manufacturers conducting study after study trying to prove that aspirin is an adequate treatment for migraine attacks? Yes they could show some pain relief for a few patients, but aspirin will never abort an episode like Imitrex or prevent a migraine. Eventually even the idiotic publishers would (I hope!) figure out that a few studies showing modest results are probably enough.

Yes why do they continue to study this when they have the most important data they need in the form of the ME association survey.

It's like they couldn't consider what patients have to say freely so they make up some study, waste money on it and then try to justify it by exaggerating the results.

Why is it so hard for them to realise that if it worked we'd all be doing it. If it worked they wouldn't need more studies because it should be obvious by now.

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of these studies have actually mentioned the term PEM ?
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
I remember being part of a CBT group of men with CFS in a city near my house.

It was located in a hospital, an old hospital, with no easy access close to elevators etc.

It was about a 10 minute walk plus standing and waiting for elevators. For 15 to 20 mons of total being upright. I was in a flare at the time but was wanting to meet others.

After doing this I got to the room. Symptoms were smiling me in the face and as I sat through an hour of guys chatting that were in much better shape than I. I couldnt concentrate, had bluŕred vision, was overstimmed, and did not getting anything out of the group.

Needless to say I never returned.

It is like somehow the Dr forgot to read the ressearch that minimal activity can cause a flare and weeks prior he had people come talk to him about the break down or the anerobic system in CFS, Orthostatic Intolerance, Dr Peterson talked to him, several other experts were their explaining the disease.

Goes to show the true magnitude of PACE,CBT and GET and the impact on the world wide ME community. I do not live in the UK either.
 

Invisible Woman

Senior Member
Messages
1,267
Why is it so hard for them to realise that if it worked we'd all be doing it

Exactly @BurnA ! If it would work I would happily do whatever physical exercise they wanted me to (I really miss exercise actually). If SSRI's would work I'd take 'em. They could label me mentally ill &, as long as they could treat me, I would thank them with a cheerful smile on my face if I could regain even 50% function.

Someone said in another thread about no treatment being better than the wrong treatment. These guys just do not seem to get that what is ok for other folk is very detrimental to us. Even with PEM highlighted as a core symptom they still don't get it.
 

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
The question none of the GET enthusiasts seem to ask or answer is how anyone can tell if they are outside the range in which exercise is beneficial if their perception of fatigue and effort is messed up. This is an internal contradiction in theories of exercise psychopathology based on distorted perception.

If they did address this issue, I believe they would say that you have to work so hard to make yourself worse that this is very unlikely. This is an untested assumption. Painful experience has taught me there are times when the gap between beneficial exercise and harmful overexertion disappears, and other times when it is extremely narrow.

I've also noticed that doctors in general use a very strange idea of probability. If something works for 99% of the population you can recommend it unreservedly. In the U.S. this might mean your advice would harm 3 million people. Such generic advice does not require the existence of paid professionals providing trained expertise.
 

Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
Our single biggest problem is disease definition.
If we could all unite and campaign for one thing it should be one and only one definition. All other definitions should be discarded and any studies based on them discredited redefined or retracted.

If we were solving this as a typical problem solving exercise I am sure this is the first step that would be done.
Not sure it is that simple with complex yet-to-be-figured-out disease processes.

I have no idea if ME/CFS is one disease (more or less), or a bunch of otherwise unrelated diseases/disorders that just have a superficially similar presentation. Or somewhere in between.

Until we get a better picture of underlying pathophysiology, then we are stuck with inadequate and problematic definitions. I doubt even the hallowed CCC or Ramsay definitions will survive in their current form once we have a better understanding (though I suspect that Ramsay will prove the most accurate and durable of the lot).
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, we need to remember that even Workwell and Klimas find that exercise can help, its just that the rules of exercise are different for us, so different that they are counter-intuitive even to most fitness experts. We know it can be done, but we don't have all the rules figured out, only that we need to stay under our anaerobic threshold. It would be nice if exercise researchers actually took account of the exercise research in their study designs.


I find there are days when any activity is harmful (today I find getting out of my chair is difficult and risky), even standing up (with risk of passing out and falling) and other days when I can do stuff for three to five minutes .... as long as its only moderate activity. I used to use this time for weight training but now I use it for household chores, or they don't get done.

Its also an issue that, as at least one person has commented on, that these are likely to be mild patients. At the mild end of the spectrum I was capable of far more exercise, and could improve fitness ... then one day, after some improvement, my energy level would crash, badly, and not restore after any amount of rest. Even as a mild patient when that happened it would take six months to recover. As a moderate trending to severe patient patient my exercise tolerance is very poor, and today I am finding typing difficult.