Nature Article Uses ME/CFS to Examine The Microgenderome

[jimells]

But then we have the question of whether our microbiome is well-suited to certain foods.

Then (a third issue) can we modify our microbiomes so that they are well able to cope with a particular diet? How long might it take? How much change can we cope with? How much is advisable?

Discuss.

We know that different food cultures have successfully evolved in many different environments, all over the planet, over periods of many centuries. I'm pretty sure we know that humans are omnivores. That suggests to me that there is no such thing as an "ideal diet", or "ideal gut microbiome", at least for healthy people.

Is there an "ideal diet" for ME patients, given that we are chronically ill and frequently have gut problems? Maybe. If there is, we clearly don't know what it might be at this point in time, and what subgroups a theoretical ideal diet might apply to.

 

[Richard7]

Its difficult to work out.

If you eat a food it's polyphenols and fibre and all you dont absorb are available to the microbes in your gut. There is an advantage on offer to any microbe that evolves to consume it, they have horizontal gene transfer and short generations, but they may still not evolve the ability.

But it is not like there are an infinite variety of things we eat. The kit of skills that bacteria that have evolved in guts have stored in their DNA should be sufficient, and when I have read/listened to Jeff Leach and Rob Knight I imagine a very flexible ecosystem that changes its distribution and retools as we move through the year and the environment.

With that ecosystem it should be just a matter of eat the food and wait. But that does not seem to have worked yet. And I do not know if that is a matter of host problems, stomach and intestines not doing their stuff or if our mass extinction events (antibiotics) have been so severe that system cannot recover.

I watched a series on the ABC (Australian) a year or so ago that I cannot remember all that well, but it explained how the evolution of one class of organisms generated O2 and how that lead to mass extinctions and then this period of out of control changing climates. To have a steady state you needed a closed carbon cycle etc, but there was no guarantee that such a thing would happen.

I wonder if we are doing something similar internally. If it is not just us but our guts that are treading water.

And then we have the immune interactions with food that I do not really understand.

No I think there is an idea in there somewhere, but I could be wrong, I need a rest.

 

[alicec]

If it is not just us but our guts that are treading water.

It could be something like this - certainly there is resistance to change.

There could be several elements to it. For various reasons, certain gut bugs get well established. We might subsequently improve our diet and provide food that should stimulate the expansion of other populations, but this would be at the expense of the existing inhabitants. Some of them at least will resist this and fight back, eg by producing antibiotic-like substances against their competitors.

Then there is cross-feeding and the related notion of keystone species. The latter are pioneers that start to break down substrates making them available for a much wider group of organisms to exploit. With cross-feeding, some populations are dependant on others to provide essential nutrients - maybe not energy sources such as with keystones, but perhaps essential enzyme cofactors.

If a keystone is missing then complex ecosystems may just never get established. Or maybe certain cross-feeders are absent so dependant species just can't thrive.

Maybe too there is some serious problem with the host environment though I haven't seen any particular studies addressing this (though haven't looked hard for them).

 

[MeSci]

It could be something like this - certainly there is resistance to change.

There could be several elements to it. For various reasons, certain gut bugs get well established. We might subsequently improve our diet and provide food that should stimulate the expansion of other populations, but this would be at the expense of the existing inhabitants. Some of them at least will resist this and fight back, eg by producing antibiotic-like substances against their competitors.

Then there is cross-feeding and the related notion of keystone species. The latter are pioneers that start to break down substrates making them available for a much wider group of organisms to exploit. With cross-feeding, some populations are dependant on others to provide essential nutrients - maybe not energy sources such as with keystones, but perhaps essential enzyme cofactors.

If a keystone is missing then complex ecosystems may just never get established. Or maybe certain cross-feeders are absent so dependant species just can't thrive.

Maybe too there is some serious problem with the host environment though I haven't seen any particular studies addressing this (though haven't looked hard for them).

I guess that every time we eat, we consume a different combination of microbes, even if our diet remains fairly constant.

I am one of the many who seems to have found an ideal combination of foods and supplements, producing dramatic improvements in gut function, numerous symptoms, and even a bit more energy, only to find that it doesn't last.

I have theorised that perhaps initially we got the balance just right, but then, with some nutrients, we went from sufficiency to excess just through eating the same things, due to our bodies perhaps disposing of different nutrients and other compounds at different rates, but your ideas provide yet more ways that imbalances can occur.

Maybe one day we will be able to run quick tests at home to see exactly what is in deficit and what is in excess, and fix them!

EDIT

And of course there will be interactions with the environment outside the gut, so e.g. anything that affects the immune system will probably have an effect on the gut microbiome.

 

[bertiedog]

@alicec Thanks for all the useful info, I am also trying to work on my gut and have recently started making my own Kefir which I mix in with flax seeds for fibre and natural yoghurt to thicken it further. Have you tried experimenting with Kefir to see if it makes any difference to your micro biome?

I also had no detectable lactobacillus on my last GI effects test and quite high levels of EColi, Streptococci plus a 4+ Citrobactor. I also think I have had SIBO for a long time and last month did a 10 day course of Rimfaximin which has helped that a lot. There is still something not right though and last week I thought I could feel the bugs partying under my ribs again so started Biocare Oregano complex 2 with evening meal plus lots of their probiotics and the Kefir and things are improving again. My main problem is constipation with occasional loose bowels, it seems to go from one to the other for no apparent reason.

I also had a very low level of diversity which I want to try and improve, hence more fibre like psyllium and flax plus I can tolerate one Ryvita daily. I eat lots of vegetables anyway and a small amount of organic berries from the garden. I do fine with dairy but not with high carb.

I did have a severe bout of Campylbactor poisoning in 1998 and don't think my gut was ever right after that.

Pam

 

[alicec]

Have you tried experimenting with Kefir to see if it makes any difference to your micro biome?

I haven't used kefir consistently - just from time to time.

I do have tests before and after sauerkraut and yogurt. There is no obvious effect - in more than 12 months of tests Lactobacillus has been detected only once at a very low level, similarly Leuconostoc. There does seem to be a slow establishment of Bifidobacterium but it doesn't follow an obvious pattern.

I don't think this means these foods are useless, there may be many indirect benefits, and of course, as we have been discussing, changing the microbiome in a consistent way can be a slow process.

 

[GaryK]

My Immunologist said she had a patient that eats sauerkraut Every day (a Bowl of it) They seem to think this is doing their gut well. I do see this as you may need to do a lot more dosage per day if the gut is in desperate need of repair .

My Immunologist suggested a book to read on this matter. "Brain Maker" By David Pearlmutter MD (neurologist) I am finding it a good read for those just learning about gut troubles and how to help it along.
Gary

 

[Avengers26]

@Richard7 I am familiar with betaine hcl but what bile salts did you take?

@alicec Have you posted anywhere about what MAC's were best for what genus? I had googled on it a few months back but didn't have much luck.

 

[alicec]

what bile salts did you take?

I use these.

Have you posted anywhere about what MAC's were best for what genus?

No, though I have done some research on this in the past. I ran out of energy so didn't look exhaustively, but essentially I concluded that while there did seem to be some evidence that some bacteria preferred some sources it wasn't robust enough to warrant really pushing one or other source.

I've just tried to be really careful to supply the whole gamut.

I have noticed however that a couple of keystone genera are still absent after quite some time of careful dietary measures (Ruminococcus, Eubacterium and Akkermansia). Maybe it's time to do some more research.

 

[Avengers26]

@alicec I know @Vegas had mentioned in the past about how some foods can be selectively good for certain bacteria. Steel cut oats, beets, mucilage foods etc. were example of some such foods he mentioned. I had googled on it several months ago with not much luck. I will try it again & post it here.

 

[Richard7]

@Avengers26 hi,

yeah I use nutricology too, they are the cheapest by a large margin at the moment.

 

[Justin30]

There is an underlying disease process fueling all this stuff along clearly. The ICC Definition points to multi system disorder.

There are areas of science ex Brain and Gut where Dr. Only know 30% about....there are many theories as to where this thing is starting from and being fueled by (virus, gut, vagus nerve,etc). We have not even come close to discovering the amount of viruses and bacteria that are actually out thier.

There are many neurological diseases that are now being implicated as being connected to the GUT. 60% of immune cells are in there. There has also been Proven translocation of bacteria into blood after exercise in CFS patients. Which when the fo into the blood the immune system attacks.

Most organic raw foods feed intestinal microbiota but if you have SIBO, Gut Motility problems, Active Viruses, Brain Damage, endocrine dysfuntion, toxicity from liver and kidney not functioning correctly. We have an awful lot of crap to clean up before we start healing wouldnt you say?

I feel there is a distinct link between the gut and the brain via the Vagus nerve....to many diseases that involve brain dysfunction are caused by nasties in th gut.....guess what they are all the major neurological or multisystem disease from MS to Dyautonomia to PANDAs...

Just my thoughts....we really should be using our time to figure out a way to strength our stance on ME/CFS amongst government, polotics, insurers, etc.

We need money for research, we need to piss off enough people to give us the money, we need to build awareness, we need help from our organizations, we really just need to work together to get something going.....

The one that gets me is thats stats are stagering for cfs 1,000,000 people but most likely more....zikka virus got 1.8 billion in funding and only a few have got it.....i picked that info up from someone else on PR...guess what they make Zika scary to people and they display it Via media coverage (it is scary but they knw what it is).....should we really be showing how scary our diseases is too the media?????????? It only affects almost 1% of the population and can make you develop 15 plus co morbities and thats with minimal study.....why dont we televise that....????

Just my rant for the day.......