Mental health: Is ME/CFS Brain Fog consistent with an Attention Deficit Disorder?

[Rufous McKinney]

this is me as well

my daughter tells me I will blurt out stupid things to random people, also!

 

[Learner1]

Oh my! It pays to do your own homework and advocate for yourself.

 

[FinRinTin]

I’ve got ADHD.
It has influenced my life in a big way… mostly negative.
Ritalin has helped completing boring tasks but it’s in no way a fix.

In my opinion CFS and ADHD have very little in common.
Probably the biggest similarity is that no one believes you that it’s a serious condition.

In this regard CFS is even worse because it’s almost impossible to hide the state you are in.

 

[hapl808]

I do wonder if I have a bit of ADHD. I never identified with the 'impulsive' part, but my more recent understanding is the impulsivity is not as frequently found in adults. I don't think I have an extreme version, but definitely start too many tasks, procrastinate, have trouble following up on things, etc. Not sure if that's just normal lack of discipline, though.

As for ME/CFS, I feel like it's different. When I do finally get engrossed in a topic, the PEM crash that hits me afterward is frustrating because it takes away all the work I used to be able to accomplish. Same with the physical crashes, constant brain fog and fatigue, unrefreshing sleep, etc. My sleep patterns are actually the best they've ever been, but I'm exhausted and my muscles are incredibly weak and easily injured.

 

[Booble]

I definitely don't have attention deficit.
I have the reverse of attention deficit.

 

[pattismith]

I'm in Canada

Been offered Ritalin/Adderall, no thanks.

Why not giving it a try? Just to see if ADHD drugs does something for you!

I didn't get the ADHD diagnosis from an authorized specialist.... But I got a visit with one of the best specialist in my country for Narcolepsy/hypersomnia (his center also work with specialists for ADHD).

I already saw him 8 years ago for my sleepiness/brain fog/drowziness/inattention problem.

At that time I had evaluation for sleep disorder (I had a sleep study), and he concluded that I didn't have any sleep disorder.

At our last meeting (8 years later), I explained that my symptoms got worse after a flu vaccine, and that Ritaline helps me a lot for 1.5 years now.

I also explained that another doctor (one of his ancient student!) recently diagnosed me with a chronic iron deficiency (this is a risk factor for ADHD).

He seemed to be very confident that according to my sleep study (normal) and my attention problems (that I suppose I have), the improvement with ritaline means that

- I likely need it
- My problem is likely to be ADHD (attention deficit subtype).

He agreed to give me a presciption to keep this treatment that helps me without further evaluation.
I suppose my age (55 years), my long life suffering history without any effective help, and my positive experience with the drug made his mind.

(Also I already tried to get an appointment with his collegue (ADHD specialist in the same center) without any success because he doesn't take new patient!)

His team published numerous papers, for example:

Is adult-onset attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder frequent in clinical practice? 2018
Régis Lopez 1, 2, 3 Jean-Arthur Micoulaud-Franchi 4 Cédric Galera 5 Yves Dauvilliers 1 Détails


Abstract : Recent population-based longitudinal studies concluded that most adults with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms would not have a childhood history of ADHD, leading to the concept of adult-onset ADHD.
In a large, well-characterized clinical population of 446 adults with a primary complaint of ADHD, we reported a low frequency of adult-onset ADHD (6.9%), being a primary isolated condition in 2.8%.
They had less severe symptoms and tendencies for higher hypersomnolence disorder comorbidity than patients with typical childhood-onset ADHD.
Our findings reinforce the requirement to exclude other disorders that might overlap with ADHD or mimic ADHD symptoms in adulthood onset patients.

 

[ruben]

I’ve got ADHD.
It has influenced my life in a big way… mostly negative.
Ritalin has helped completing boring tasks but it’s in no way a fix.

In my opinion CFS and ADHD have very little in common.
Probably the biggest similarity is that no one believes you that it’s a serious condition.

In this regard CFS is even worse because it’s almost impossible to hide the state you are in.

On a daily basis I have nausea, bloatedness, tiredness and migraines, usually to some degree. In these circumstances I'd have thought it's impossible NOT to have brain fog. I saw somewhere once where if school kids sit exams when they have hay-fever their results will be impacted. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Springbok1988]

I have ADD. Before ME my mind was always racing, darting from one thought to the next, always thinking about interesting things, I had an excellent memory, and had very vivid imagination.
Now I struggle to imagine things, it’s very hard to think, my memory is really bad, and my mind is often blank.
For my brain fog, the two are quite different.

 

[lenora]

My daughter is now 51 yrs. old. As a young girl (from about age 2) she had raging ADHD, totally unrecognized in children then, especially girls.

I would definitely try a med.....they're so different now, so much more is known. Give it at least 2 wks., and the dosage may have to be adjusted up or down. Does someone know if you can take weekend breaks the way you could with say, Ritalin? I don't know and this is the first I've heard of adult onset ADD.

Perhaps that explains my problems after my autoimmune encephalitis....I'll ask my neurologist and see what he says and recommends. I keep putting things down to my age, and perhaps that isn't the reason at all.

I'll have to read more about this problem. Interesting. Thanks! Yours, Lenora

 

[lenora]

I wanted to add that as far as I know (and I used to follow this carefully), there is no definitive diagnosis for ADD or ADHD. The closest I've come to is a group of therapists of different types, doctors (different types) in a teaching hospital who give each parent what seemed like 200 page questionnaires and then compared them (we were put in separate rooms). Tests given by psychiatrists and IQ tests were also used.

A "diagnosis" of whether or not your child has ADD or ADHD was based on that....and it wasn't such a bad way to do it. The biggest requirement was the total time involved, our child being seen by so many specialists.

Is there a test that actually gives a proper diagnosis today? Yours, Lenora

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I definitely don't have attention deficit.
I have the reverse of attention deficit.

this illness induces ADD...puff went the energy, never mind that entire topic, this is too hard, ETC.

My daughter is now 51 yrs. old. As a young girl (from about age 2) she had raging ADHD, totally unrecognized in children then, especially girls.

I married a male version...pre Diagnosing that..

the school Principal saw my husband hoping the rail road train at seven to get to school, Madison Wisconsin.

Its rather fascinating watching this, now, in a 75 year old.

 

[Alvin2]

Why not giving it a try? Just to see if ADHD drugs does something for you!

I didn't get the ADHD diagnosis from an authorized specialist.... But I got a visit with one of the best specialist in my country for Narcolepsy/hypersomnia (his center also work with specialists for ADHD).

I already saw him 8 years ago for my sleepiness/brain fog/drowziness/inattention problem.

At that time I had evaluation for sleep disorder (I had a sleep study), and he concluded that I didn't have any sleep disorder.

At our last meeting (8 years later), I explained that my symptoms got worse after a flu vaccine, and that Ritaline helps me a lot for 1.5 years now.

I also explained that another doctor (one of his ancient student!) recently diagnosed me with a chronic iron deficiency (this is a risk factor for ADHD).

He seemed to be very confident that according to my sleep study (normal) and my attention problems (that I suppose I have), the improvement with ritaline means that

- I likely need it
- My problem is likely to be ADHD (attention deficit subtype).

He agreed to give me a presciption to keep this treatment that helps me without further evaluation.
I suppose my age (55 years), my long life suffering history without any effective help, and my positive experience with the drug made his mind.

(Also I already tried to get an appointment with his collegue (ADHD specialist in the same center) without any success because he doesn't take new patient!)

His team published numerous papers, for example:

I'm glad it works for you but i'm not interested in it, too many possible long term effects, plus i'm sensitive to psychotropic drugs.
Plus what i have is ME induced, as the ME gets worse the cognitive gets worse in lockstep.

 

[pattismith]

Many papers make the link between post covid brain fog and Attention Deficit .

Attention deficits were the most frequent types of deficits in patients with single-domain impairment (19.0%), significantly exceeding deficits in EF (p = .01), ST/WM (p = .001), and Language (p < .001).

Furthermore, attention was the cognitive domain that was most frequently impaired in conjunction with other domains in patients with multiple-domain impairment

Neuropsychological deficits in patients with cognitive complaints after COVID‐19 - García‐Sánchez - 2022 - Brain and Behavior - Wiley Online Library

 

[lenora]

@pattismith....Hello. Have you ever found in your reading anything linking ADD to something like Alzheimer's. I've never read anything about it, so assume there isn't.

I definitely had more memory problems after Autoimmune Encephalitis, but soon regained my reading skills after a fair amount of work on my part. Still, my memory isn't what it was, but that happens. Take good care. Yours, Lenora

 

[Rufous McKinney]

post covid brain fog and Attention Deficit .

Paying attention uses energy. And makes demands of our nervous system. Its a costly enterprise concentrating and paying attention to something and staying on topic when you have ME Brian fog. (assume COVID brain is similar)

And I don't view that as related to ADHD at all. Altho maybe something is going on physiologically thats parallel.

 

[lenora]

Personally, I think I finally understood some of what my oldest daughter went (goes) through on a daily basis. Paying attention can be difficult for many people....and to many questions only makes the matter worse.

I wish I'd had brain fog at an earlier time in my life. Early enough to have given her one direction at a time instead of say, two. I do forget more now than at any point in my life. I can't remember the title to a movie, book...anything. However, once I start reading it all clicks immediately into place. Yes, there are plenty of times when I simply don't have the initiative to even begin something. I've learned to accept those days and assume that better ones will follow. It all takes energy, @Rufous McKinney. You're right about that. Yours, Lenora

 

[Judee]

I don't think ME is caused by ADHD or that they are the same condition even though I think many of us pw/ME also deal with ADHD. I also do not think ADHD caused the ME.

Lately I've been watching some of this doctor's videos. I like that he prefers natural therapies to address these situations.

 

[Murph]

I never had anythign like ADHD pre-mecfs. I was the student who always handed things in early, never felt stressed about my to do list, was simply on top of things.

Now I'm a total procrastinator, can't focus, but also occasionally have hyperfocus. I asked a doctor if it might be adhd and they said it doesn't count if it's not lifelong. Fair enough.

However, Im seeing a POTS dictor who prescribes dexamfetamine for POTS. Taking that drug makes a notable difference to my ability to work productively.

 

[Judee]

Now I'm a total procrastinator, can't focus, but also occasionally have hyperfocus. I asked a doctor if it might be adhd and they said it doesn't count if it's not lifelong. Fair enough.

See that's what I wonder if ME doesn't cause a lot of these brain issues at least similar to ADHD, OCD, even some Autism spectrum (which lots of children don't seem to start out with until they get exposure to something their immune system can't fully cope with).

And maybe on that last thought, it doesn't really have to be lifelong for someone to actually experience it. Maybe that's just what that doctor (or the medical profession has been taught so far). ???

Just found this: https://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/can-adhd-occur-later-in-life/

Edit: Like that last bullet: "An entirely adult form of ADHD that has not been medically identified at this time."

Like after exposure to something our immune system couldn't fully cope with.

 

[hapl808]

I also think 'ADHD' is a bit of an arbitrary designation. As we're familiar, there's no biomarkers, no objective tests that I'm aware of. This is the challenge with psychiatry - someone comes up with a theory, and instead of testing it, generally it's just whether other people in your field agree.