I need help interpreting a Cytokine Response Profile test! High IL-17A and IL-18, low Th1 and Th2!

[MEsucks]

I just got the result from my Cytokine Response Profile test and to me the results seem very strange, I would very much appreciate it if anyone could help me interpret it.

I believe my CFS is caused by a chronic coxsackievirus B infection, and the only treatment that has ever had a significant positive effect is Equilibrant(oxymatrine).

At the time of taking the test, I was taking Equilibrant(oxymatrine) which is supposed to shift from Th2 to Th1. I was also taking LDN.

 

[MEsucks]

What I am mainly confused about:

Considering the coxsackievirus B infection and that I take Equilibrant(and almost certainly had a major improvement from it) I would expect to see quite a lot when it comes to Th1 and Th2, but instead they are all just <dl.

High IL-18 but low IFN gamma seems strange.

I have no idea where the high IL-17A is coming from.

 

[Blazer95]

i am the biggest noob in the cytokine game, but i have always thought that il-17 is more of a autoimmune mediator in the game.

that may or may not be true i just wanted to throw it into the discussion and see how things turn out.

 

[Blazer95]

Interleukin -17
Interleukin-17 (IL-17) wird von den erst kürzlich beschriebenen TH17-Helfer-Zellen produziert, was das bisher akzeptierte, sehr strikte TH1/TH2-Modell endgültig in Frage gestellt hat. TH17-Zellen vermitteln zwar ähnlich den IFN-γ-produzierenden TH1-Zellen proentzündliche Effekte, ihre Bedeutung liegt aber eher bei den chronisch-entzündlichen Immunprozessen. So werden effiziente TH1 (IFN-γ)-Immunantworten durch IL-17 unterdrückt, was zur Persistenz des Erregers oder Antigens und somit zur Chronifizierung der Immunreaktion (Chronische Infektion, Autoimmunerkrankungen) führt.

english translation:

Interleukin-17
Interleukin-17 (IL-17) is produced by the recently described TH17 helper cells, which has finally called into question the previously accepted, very strict TH1/TH2 model. Although TH17 cells mediate pro-inflammatory effects in a similar way to IFN-γ-producing TH1 cells, their significance lies more in chronic inflammatory immune processes. Efficient TH1 (IFN-γ) immune responses are suppressed by IL-17, which leads to the persistence of the pathogen or antigen and thus to the chronification of the immune response (chronic infection, autoimmune diseases).

source: https://www.inflammatio.de/fachbeit...tersuchungsverfahren/th1th2th17-zytokinprofil

so by my understanding maybe il-18 isnt necessarily mediated by IFN-y allone. since th17 mediate pro-inflammatory effects similar too th1, maybe its mediated through that pathway?

It seems il-17 actually supresses th1 immune answer leading to persistence of pathogens, antigens, inflammatory respsones etc etc.

wow i didnt even know that, that could explain a lot for me as il-4, il-2, il-1, tnf-alpha, il-8, il-6 and il-10 are all normal for me YET i still have high Serum amyloid A (inflammation marker).

maybe i am a victim of il-17 mediated chronic inflammatory th1 immune suppresion aswell?

damn man thats why i love this community.

 

[MEsucks]

english translation:



source: https://www.inflammatio.de/fachbeit...tersuchungsverfahren/th1th2th17-zytokinprofil

so by my understanding maybe il-18 isnt necessarily mediated by IFN-y allone. since th17 mediate similar pro-inflammatory effects similar too th1, maybe its mediated through that pathway?

actually it seems il-17 actually supresses th1 immune answer leading to persistence of pathogens, antigens, inflammatory respsones etc etc.

wow i didnt even know that, that could explain a lot for me as il-4, il-2, il-1, tnf-alpha, il-8, il-6 and il-10 are all normal for me YET i still have high Serum amyloid A (inflammation marker).

maybe i am a victim of il-17 mediated chronic inflammatory th1 immune suppresion aswell?

damn man thats why i love this community.

Interesting, then the high IL-17 could explain the low Th1, which in tern could explain the coxsackievirus infection. I wonder if it's the coxsackievirus which is protecting itself by raising IL-17 or something else that is causing it.

 

[Blazer95]

Good question. Maybe the immune system gets kinda Stuck because for some reason it tries to Fight the th1 inflammation leading to a th1 supression in the First place causing th17 to get high?

I have read somewhere that prolonged th1 immune activation can lead the immune system to try and damp it down wich can be harmful in chronic infections. Unsure If its true, Just what i Heard somewhere

I dont know, but the more interesting Part: what would one do about it?

How to get rid of excess il-17 "useless" immune Activity

 

[Violeta]

I don't know if this is a positive or a negative, just found it in a study I am reading.

Looks like it's a positive.

1,25(OH)2D3 induces expression of cytokines TGF-β1, and inhibits the secretion of pro-inflammatory cytokines IL-17A.

That's from here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161589017305059

 

[Blazer95]

this is in fact very helpful since i also have elevated 1,25(OH)2D3. maybe the elevated d3 is a reaction of the immune system to try and get rid of the th17 inflammation.

wich would make it even worse since tgf-beta is also said to reduce a th1 immune answer.

this looks like tgf-beta and il-17 tagteaming and touchdowning th1 super hard. lol. thanks for sharing!

 

[Violeta]

this is in fact very helpful since i also have elevated 1,25(OH)2D3. maybe the elevated d3 is a reaction of the immune system to try and get rid of the th17 inflammation.

wich would make it even worse since tgf-beta is also said to reduce a th1 immune answer.

this looks like tgf-beta and il-17 tagteaming and touchdowning th1 super hard. lol. thanks for sharing!

This is very interesting, I've been up since very early reading about this and have some stuff in my head that I'm not sure where to go with, may I ask you a question?

Do you get cold sores? And if you do, would being out in the sun make you more likely to get one?

Do you supplement Vitamin D?

I saw Vitamin D receptor in one thing that I read, not sure if it's in that particular study or not, or if it even means anything in your situation.

Do you have any type of chronic cough or allergies?

Thanks, I hope the information helps you find relief.

 

[Hip]

I have no idea where the high IL-17A is coming from

N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG) inhibits Th17.

One study found that high Th17 worsens coxsackievirus B myocarditis.



Do you have any anxiety symptoms? High IL-17 or high Th17 cells are linked to anxiety (Th17 cells produce IL-17).

I've found N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG) in doses of 1 to 2 grams daily dramatically reduces my generalised anxiety disorder, and I speculate in this post that the mechanism may involve NAG's inhibition of Th17 cells.

Although NAG also inhibits the antiviral Th1 response, which may not be desirable in ME/CFS. But I have coxsackievirus B4 ME/CFS, and I have not found taking NAG at doses up to 2000 mg daily worsens my ME/CFS.


Increased Th17 is also found in IBS-D.

Vitamin D also reduces IL-17 and Th17.

 

[Violeta]

this is in fact very helpful since i also have elevated 1,25(OH)2D3. maybe the elevated d3 is a reaction of the immune system to try and get rid of the th17 inflammation.

wich would make it even worse since tgf-beta is also said to reduce a th1 immune answer.

this looks like tgf-beta and il-17 tagteaming and touchdowning th1 super hard. lol. thanks for sharing!

This might help, boswellia, which is also called frankincense.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24469975/

 

[MEsucks]

Do you have any anxiety symptoms? High IL-17 or high Th17 cells are linked to anxiety (Th17 cells produce IL-17).

I barely have any anxiety, but I think I have more than before my CFS.

 

[MEsucks]

@Hip My understanding is that you are very knowledgeable when in comes to coxsackievirus b and Dr John Chia. Do you know if the virus could be causing the high Th17, or if I should be looking beyond the treatments Dr John Chia uses? (I am almost certain Equilibrant is helping me, but the Cytokine Response Profile does not match his theories at all)

 

[Hip]

Do you know if the virus could be causing the high Th17, or if I should be looking beyond the treatments Dr John Chia uses?

To my knowledge, the Th17 immune response is not triggered in response to coxsackievirus B infection, and in fact, there are a number of studies showing Th17 worsens CVB myocarditis. So Th17 is not really useful for CVB.

The two main pathogens that require a good Th17 immune response to control are Staphylococcus, and Candida. So it could be that you have higher levels of these microbes in your gut or nasopharynx, which might be causing the high IL-17.


Most enterovirus ME/CFS patients on this forum don't seem to get much benefit from oxymatrine (I found no benefit myself). One forum poll indicated only 13% experience a major improvement from oxymatrine. However, there are some patients who do benefit, so if you are one of those, you are in luck.

Responders to oxymatrine normally see signs of improvement by 4 to 6 weeks, but a few may take more than 3 months. Ref: 1

Once the full benefits of oxymatrine have manifested, Dr Chia says men can stop taking it after 3 to 6 months (though here he says to take it for 12 months). Women however usually have to continue taking oxymatrine, otherwise they relapse. Ref: 1


Dr Chia uses the antiviral tenofovir as well for enterovirus ME/CFS. I don't think this HIV drug is directly antiviral for enterovirus, but like oxymatrine it is a strong immunomodulator, it strongly inhibits IL-10.

 

[Hip]

If Staphylococcus were high in your gut or nasopharynx, then this unique probiotic is able to kill off Staph in the gut and nasal area.

There is suggestive evidence that Staphylococcus in linked to ME/CFS, as Prof Gottfries's highly effective ME/CFS treatment is based on taking regular doses of a Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine.

 

[Blazer95]

If Staphylococcus were high in your gut or nasopharynx, then this unique probiotic is able to kill off Staph in the gut and nasal area.

There is suggestive evidence that Staphylococcus in linked to ME/CFS, as Prof Gottfries's highly effective ME/CFS treatment is based on taking regular doses of a Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine.

how would one deal with nasal staphs? make a spray out of the probiotic?

My LTT was positive to staph so I was atleast exposed to it. I might still have it somewhere.

Edit: i Just ordered kollodial silver nasal Spray. Its Said that it also works antibacterial. Paired with a probiotic it should do Something in theory

 

[Hip]

how would one deal with nasal staphs? make a spray out of the probiotic?

On the Staphylococcus Bacillus subtilis probiotic thread, the study found that even an oral probiotic reduced nasopharynx levels. But it might be an idea to spray into the nose, as you say.

As far as I can work out, this may be safe. I have some slight concern, since Bacillus subtilis is a spore-forming bacterium, and so is quite hardy, so it might lead to an infection. However, the fact that a study using a Bacillus spore nasal spray in kids found no adverse effects put my mind at rest a bit.

 

[datadragon]

this is in fact very helpful since i also have elevated 1,25(OH)2D3.

The 25(OH)D3‐1‐α‐hydroxylase that converts 25(OH)D to active 1,25(OH)2D3 in the kidney is also expressed in activated macrophages and dendritic cells. However, in contrast to the renal cells, in antigen presenting cells the enzyme is non‐responsive to suppression by either parathyroid hormone or 1,25(OH)2D3. Instead, it is inducible in the cells by a number of factors such as interferon γ (IFNγ) and is downregulated as the dendritic cell mature https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1955167/ That can lead to higher 1,25 and lower 25(OH)D.

Vitamin D also reduces IL-17 and Th17.

but see: Treatment of mice with an active ligand of vitamin D receptor (VDR), 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (1,25D3), ameliorated experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis, accompanied with reduced IL-17 and IL-17F expression.

Active form which requires zinc and Vitamin A for the VDR functions, again most of this is regulated by zinc. The vitamin D receptor (VDR) binds zinc, and the activity of vitamin D dependent genes in cells is influenced by intracellular zinc concentrations. So again with Vitamin D, the VDR functions of Vitamin D may be impacted with a zinc deficiency.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/dang-those-vitamin-d3-levels.91152/page-2#post-2450071
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/dang-those-vitamin-d3-levels.91152/post-2449906

 

[almost]

I just got the result from my Cytokine Response Profile test and to me the results seem very strange, I would very much appreciate it if anyone could help me interpret it.

I believe my CFS is caused by a chronic coxsackievirus B infection, and the only treatment that has ever had a significant positive effect is Equilibrant(oxymatrine).

Hello @MEsucks, thank you for starting this thread.

I have high titers of Cox B3 & B4, suggesting past infection, so this thread is of interest to me, as I'm trying to figure out if CVB (Coxsackie Virus B) is part of my problem. I have two questions:

1. From whom did you order the Cytokine Response Profile test (and what was the cost)?
2. How did you determine that your CFS was caused by a chronic CVB infection (how did you establish the infection was chronic, and therefore I take while low-lying, still active, versus a past infection for which your immune system still had memory)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[MEsucks]

Hello @MEsucks, thank you for starting this thread.

I have high titers of Cox B3 & B4, suggesting past infection, so this thread is of interest to me, as I'm trying to figure out if CVB (Coxsackie Virus B) is part of my problem. I have two questions:

1. From whom did you order the Cytokine Response Profile test (and what was the cost)?
2. How did you determine that your CFS was caused by a chronic CVB infection (how did you establish the infection was chronic, and therefore I take while low-lying, still active, versus a past infection for which your immune system still had memory)?

Thanks in advance.

1. The test is called “CytoDx (Cytokine Response Profile)” and I ordered it through Nordic Laboratories/Nordic clinic, but I don’t know which lab they then sent it to. It cost me 360 EUR. I have(like I suspected) not been able to do anything useful with the results, so I can't say I recommend it.

2. I tested for the common infections(EBV(EliSpot), CVB, etc, the roadmap(https://mecfsroadmap.altervista.org/) is a good guide) and everything but CVB was negative, suggesting that if I had an infection it was CVB. After following a carnivore diet for a few months, my stomach symptoms mostly disappeared, but I did not notice an improvement in other symptoms, suggesting it is not the root problem. Looking through the roadmap(some other stuff as well, thyroid problems, heavy metal poisoning, etc) considering symptoms, tests, history and response to treatments, the by far most likely cause, which I was not already sufficiently treating, was CVB. That theory was further strengthened by the fact that I believe my problems started with a few years of untreated low grade chronic sinusitis(or some sort of sinus problems/infection), and that oxymatrine had some effect. The CVB test was a IgG and IgA test, the IgA suggests a recent or current infection and the fact that IgG is very high I think suggests a chronic infection. I also tested positive twice, almost two years apart.

What were the exact results of your Cox B3 & B4 test? Titer levels, reference range, type of test, type of antibodies?

I could go into a lot more detail, but it is easier if we have a back and forth where you ask about whatever is still unclear.