• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

How I found the underlying cause of my CFS--anti NMDA antibodies

SK2018

SK
Messages
239
Location
Asia wide + UK
I just randomly quoted this,sorry. I'd really appreciate an email response, I've sent it from orinivanvrkas@gmail.com.
I'd like to get in touch with the people helping you in Taiwan.

I'm also interested to know what you think makes the body create more or less of the faulty antibodies, what can be done in general to dissuade sympoms until immunomodulation?

Thanks again :)
molecular mimicry
By stander activation
Virus non accessible B cells locate another target ect
PM me for Taiwan doc details
 

SK2018

SK
Messages
239
Location
Asia wide + UK
why is there a flu vaccine (humoral immune system, antibodies) if cellular immunity/t-cells are more important for viruses?

To support what I replied last time.
image.png
image.png
image.png
 

Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
@Daffodil

Would you be able to elaborate on this or point me to a reference? I had a tumor on my ovary, and am most interested.

Thank you!
Hi Learner. I'm sorry I do not even remember posting this..it must have been a while ago. Probably I looked it up on Google or PubMed?

When I am less fogged, I will try to find it again. Sorry about that
xoxox
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Would you be able to elaborate on this or point me to a reference? I had a tumor on my ovary, and am most interested.

@Learner1 I am not sure which reference @Daffodil was referring to but in paraneoplastic syndromes, there are often certain cancers that are linked to certain autoantibodies. Anti NMDA autoantibodies are often linked to an ovarian tumor (in females so of course not relevant for Shawn!) and one of the autoantibodies that I have (N-type calcium channel) can be linked to small cell lung cancer so I require a yearly high resolution lung cat scan.

In the book, "The Girl on the 6th Floor" in which the main character has anti NMDA Abs, they checked her repeatedly for an ovarian tumor but never found one. It is a true story and very worth reading if you are interested in this topic. Sometimes just a few tumor cells are produced and the body destroys them so no cancer is ever found but the antibodies are found and the person develops a paraneoplastic syndrome. And in other cases, just the antibodies are found but there never was a tumor/cancer at all.

Hope this helps.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
@Learner1 I am not sure which reference @Daffodil was referring to but in paraneoplastic syndromes, there are often certain cancers that are linked to certain autoantibodies. Anti NMDA autoantibodies are often linked to an ovarian tumor (in females so of course not relevant for Shawn!) and one of the autoantibodies that I have (N-type calcium channel) can be linked to small cell lung cancer so I require a yearly high resolution lung cat scan.

In the book, "The Girl on the 6th Floor" in which the main character has anti NMDA Abs, they checked her repeatedly for an ovarian tumor but never found one. It is a true story and very worth reading if you are interested in this topic. Sometimes just a few tumor cells are produced and the body destroys them so no cancer is ever found but the antibodies are found and the person develops a paraneoplastic syndrome. And in other cases, just the antibodies are found but there never was a tumor/cancer at all.

Hope this helps.
Thank you @Gingergrrl. I've been following your story with interest... thanks for chiming in!

I'll definitely go find the book. What I'm wondering is, if one had the tumor, and it was removed, might the NMDA antibodies still be there and causing trouble?

Thanks!
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,861
Location
Brisbane, Australia
What I'm wondering is, if one had the tumor, and it was removed, might the NMDA antibodies still be there and causing trouble?
Not sure if the same applies to NMDA receptor antibodies too but in other cases of paraneoplastic syndromes I've looked at with a different antibody cause, the antibody sometimes reduces to zero with the removal of a tumor but it doesn't appear to be the norm in general.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
What I'm wondering is, if one had the tumor, and it was removed, might the NMDA antibodies still be there and causing trouble?

I honestly do not know the answer but my guess is that it varies from person to person. I belong to a private FB group for my calcium auto-antibody (not the NMDA Ab) and some in the group have had cancer found and others have not (like me). I have also learned from the group that if someone is doing a treatment like IVIG or RTX, it could affect the auto-antibody test results, basically making them appear to be zero yet the antibody is still there (sometimes causing problems or possibly no longer causing problems but still there).

I am not really sure if you can ever truly get rid of these antibodies once you have them. I wish I knew! I believe it is possible to knock out the antibodies with something like RTX and then the new B-Cells grow back healthy and you are rid of the antibody. But it seems in many cases, the new B-Cells grow back still making the antibody. I think this is where the "Memory B-Cells" play a role and I wish I understood it all better!
 

SK2018

SK
Messages
239
Location
Asia wide + UK
Just found there is a type of plasmapheresis called "cytapheresis" that removes white blood cells ,I wonder if this would remove antibody secreting plasma blasts and B cells ,If so and esp if it removed those in tandem with removing antibodies it could be a great short term symptom reliever.
image.png
 
Messages
91
Hey everyone I'm new here ,before I was the picture of perfect health I almost never got sick ,had a great social life and was in the best year of my life and then BOOM it all changed.

I contracted a HSV 2 infection on October 4 2015 something at the time I thought was not a big deal I mean who cares about a few bumps a few times per year right? But 2 weeks after this infection things started to go wrong. It all started on October 18 when I woke up and suddenly had a strange low level headache and found Myself in derealization every single day ,soon after that periods of anxiety attacks ,tingling ,fatigue and clumsiness started to set in as well as nightmares and brain fog
And weird fatigue.

I had no idea what was wrong ,I kept going for all these tests and things kept coming back normal,finally I was told by a specialist that I have ME/CFS,still since there was no sign of HSV antibodies or DNA or other infections in my CSF via spinal tap i became convinced that What I have is an autoimmune condition,I believe many people diagnosed to have ME despite sharing similar symptoms and a similar clinical course are divided into different subsets caused by different things,however I hold my belief that most forms of CFS are immune mediated.

With this belief and a newly inflamed brain and myself deteriorating rapidly with worse memory and brain fog I set out to get treatment ,flew back to the UK (I'm a Brit living in asia) got abused and pushed aside by the NHS as all their "standard"tests came back normal ,after 6 months of suffering more damage I finally went back to China and a smart neuro immune specialist tested me for lots of different neuronal antibodies via immune fluorescent staining ,the blood staining test came back strong for anti NMDA antibodies and they were found in my CSF,my CSF syndrome sharing nearly all your symptoms was caused by A persistent mild form of anti NMDA antibodies attacking receptors through out my nervous system,China being
Cheap and willing with experimental health care allowed me access to all forms of immune modulation treatments.

Here is the results.

STEROIDS
minimal relief

PLASMAPHERESIS-
A very noticeable improvement of all my CFS symptoms fatigue ,nervous system symptoms but only temporary as the antibodies are getting reproduced fast.


RITUXIMAB
I am now slowly and stably improving how long this trend will last i will know soon and report it here.


IVIG
A disaster,gave me an immunonallergic reaction in the CNS and dropped my baseline down 30% never been the same since,i suspect the reaction was caused by an influx of 25 bottles of human albumin protein and a large number of foreign antibodies from countless different people.

Quality and cost of treatment in Shanghai is very fair,for 5 sessions of plasmapheresis it was 30000rmb roughly 3000 pound.

Rituximab cost me only 1400 pounds for a one time
500mg infusion
(which is enough to get rid of all B cells)

Steroids -well cheap as chips here literally.

RECCOMMENDED HOSPITALS
For plasmapheresis-Shanghai Rui Jin
For neuroimmune -Hua Shan Hoapital


MY POINT
Nobody knows exactly what causes CFS let alone their own CFS,with so many different triggering onsets and theories it's lowly our syndrome is caused by various factors I just think instead of debating the role of herpes viruses outside of being an initial trigger it's probably more prudent to start thinking an autoimmune or
Immune mediated disorder ,I have never gotten benefit from antivirals like I have with immune modulation,I understand the virus was the trigger of the initial incorrect immune behavior most likely through a process of "molecular mimicry"where the IS recognizes one of the viral /bacterial proteins as looking like something in the nervous system thus fires both ways.

I would suggest getting tested for all the anti neuronal and nervous system antibodies available I'm so glad I did and now I can at least have hope to he better and above all get recognition of having a a real illness which all forms of CFS moat definitely are.Maye by doing this you will discover your from it certainly is more useful an endeavor than CBT or anti depressants.

VIRAL TITRES
Btw as a footnote I don't regard the high viral titres as relevant or important at all ,all that shows is good immunity to a latent infection ,I would rather have a strong control response to a latent infection rather than a poor one ,and besides before my HSV CFS autoimmune trigger I have had latent EBV and CMV since
I was a kid and each time I tested that the IGG titre was always around 1:250-1:300 and that was in the most healthy amazing years of my life ,my titres to those same viruses are still similar now and I even had DNA tests for both of them no virus DNA could be detected in the blood ,all these titres mean are a sign of past latent infection and a good immune patrol of the pathogen.

If you want to experiment with treatment and get access to all testing you want at good quality and a fair price I suggest coming to Shanghai China,as on the NHS forget it ,they will send you to CBT and let You rot ,and in some other countries like the USA the prices are ridiculous.

Shawn
Hi Shawn,

I'm really interested in your case. I had shingles in April 2015 and in July 2015 I came down with all the symptoms you say most of the problems are brain related suddenly. I feel as though the route of the problem is my brain inflammation. I'm still struggling to this day but I've had every test the UK hospitals offer. Would they have already ruled out anti NDMA antibodies as routine (they've gone through hundreds of blood tests( or is it unknown? How do I go about getting it tested?
 

SK2018

SK
Messages
239
Location
Asia wide + UK
You need to ask if they tested for anti neuronal antibodies or else you'll never know for sure,it sounds auto immune but also could be a low level varicella brain infection ,there are cases of mild low level versions of this ,but it's unlikely if the spinal tap did not find the DNA and other "infective markers".

Did you have a spinal tap before ?

You should be referred to a specialists ,I am meeting Doctor Michael S Zandi today lets hope he doesn't tell me to bugger off

Hi Shawn,

I'm really interested in your case. I had shingles in April 2015 and in July 2015 I came down with all the symptoms you say most of the problems are brain related suddenly. I feel as though the route of the problem is my brain inflammation. I'm still struggling to this day but I've had every test the UK hospitals offer. Would they have already ruled out anti NDMA antibodies as routine (they've gone through hundreds of blood tests( or is it unknown? How do I go about getting it tested?
 
Messages
91
You need to ask if they tested for anti neuronal antibodies or else you'll never know for sure,it sounds auto immune but also could be a low level varicella brain infection ,there are cases of mild low level versions of this ,but it's unlikely if the spinal tap did not find the DNA and other "infective markers".

Did you have a spinal tap before ?

You should be referred to a specialists ,I am meeting Doctor Michael S Zandi today lets hope he doesn't tell me to bugger off

Was your onset incredibly sudden? I woke up one day with brain fog, spaced out, headache, fatigue, muscle spasm , swollen lymph nodes , insomnia and feeling not myself and it's never gone away in 18 months (also with periods of derralisation / depersonalisation) had no previous health problems/mental health problems.

Not had a spinal tap but going for an MRI today. I wish I was in China my boyfriends actually in Beijing today! I will ask for one if the MRI comes back clear which i suspect it will .

Good luck for today :)
 

SK2018

SK
Messages
239
Location
Asia wide + UK
Considering your symptoms are all brain related I am shocked they did not do a spinal tap ,how unprofessional! It def sounds like a antibody mediated syndrome but you should get a serum panel test done that includes anti NMDA also a spinal tap ,MRI most likely won't show much which is mostly the case in antibody mediated auto immune disorders of the cns.

And yes my onset was sudden also similar to what you had and it was relentless after it.Problem is even if you have an antibody mediated auto immune issue going on if it's not a known auto antibody and they can't find it you won't be able to get treatment here on the NHS ,heck even antibody positive people have a tough time ,in that situation you would be up sh*t creek without a paddle and should make plans to get treatment abroad.

Was your onset incredibly sudden? I woke up one day with brain fog, spaced out, headache, fatigue, muscle spasm , swollen lymph nodes , insomnia and feeling not myself and it's never gone away in 18 months (also with periods of derralisation / depersonalisation) had no previous health problems/mental health problems.

Not had a spinal tap but going for an MRI today. I wish I was in China my boyfriends actually in Beijing today! I will ask for one if the MRI comes back clear which i suspect it will .

Good luck for today :)
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
You need to ask if they tested for anti neuronal antibodies

@Shawn, I've been discussing this issue w/several people privately and we are trying to clarify, when they say "anti neuronal antibodies" is this the same thing as "paraneoplastic antibodies" but they just use different terms in different countries for the same tests?

You should be referred to a specialists ,I am meeting Doctor Michael S Zandi today lets hope he doesn't tell me to bugger off

That is awesome and best wishes for your appt w/Dr. Zandi today and will pray he does not tell you to bugger off and offers you some real help.
 
Messages
11
Hello
Shawn
, I am also in Shanghai, I am Chinese, but also suffering from CFS, I have very serious brain fog, and CD4 / cd8 upside down, I would like to ask you some questions, how do you infected the disease?
 

wastwater

Senior Member
Messages
1,271
Location
uk
I'm possibly missing a gene IRF4 and I think this plays a part in differentiating B cells via T cells ,I think ,and undifferentiated B cells are said to be anaplastic I think if I have that correct
 
Last edited:

SK2018

SK
Messages
239
Location
Asia wide + UK
Finally my quest for the top best treatment and thus hope has paid off ,it was a long tough journey but I hope it inspires you all to never give up and for those of you in the UK the confidence to dump the dismissive NHS and seek respect ,trust and quality care and opportunities elsewhere.
Goodbye antibody secreting plasma cells and yes even you stubborn "long lived ones"

IMG_3182.JPG
IMG_3201.JPG