Herpesvirus antivirals for ME/CFS linked to HSV-1 and VZV

[Wonkmonk]

I am thinking it is possible your high HSV titers might be due to constant reactivation of the virus from latency, rather than any significant ongoing systemic infection, which COX-2 inhibitors might help prevent.

This is a very interesting proposition. PCR tests and IgM for all herpes viruses were always negative in several tests over the past year. I also didn't have any cold sores for years. That's why my docs also said there is no active infection. Perhaps the HSV-1 constantly tries to multiply but can't because of the high antibodies, but the immune response is producing inflammation and other symptoms.

But it would still be unclear why the high-dose anti-herpetic drugs didn't help control much in controlling the reactivation. Valacyclovir and Brivudine are both highly active against HSV-1. But that seems possible, the study you posted says "[HSV-1] breakthrough reactivation can occur despite suppressive antiviral therapy."

I will look into glutamine and Celecoxib. Happy to see both are available and inexpensive in Germany.

 

[Wonkmonk]

But it would still be unclear why the high-dose anti-herpetic drugs didn't help control much in controlling the reactivation. Valacyclovir and Brivudine are both highly active against HSV-1. But that seems possible, the study you posted says "[HSV-1] breakthrough reactivation can occur despite suppressive antiviral therapy."

In a quick Google search, I found this study, which says that acyclovir is only partially effective at supressing HSV-1 replication, especially not effective in the peripheral nervous system.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15512960

It is also known that EBV-triggered mononucleosis cannot be effectively treated with acyclovir, so there seems to be limits in its effectiveness, which might explain why I only had very limited effect by using it (it had some effect though, especially in the first 4 months).

Celecoxib + antiviral sounds very interesting and the risk profile seems to be ok. I might give it a try. Although because of the costs, I'll probably do it with Valacyclovir or Brivudine instead of Famvir.

 

[Wonkmonk]

The Pridgen Protocol uses two antivirals to target HSV: Famvir and Celebrex (Dr Pridgen believes COX-1/COX-2 inhibitors like Celebrex fight HSV).

Is this the study you mean?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28260944

 

[Wonkmonk]

I think the HSV argument has merit and following the antibiotics, I might give anti HSV-treatment another try.

It's also interesting that -calcium seems to facilitate HSV entry into the cells. I always got gradually worse with calcium supplements and it slowly got better after discontinuation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2173509/

This study here suggests a drug called miltefosine might prevent HSV entry into the cells:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23507869

As acyclovir is known to be ineffective in some parts of the body, maybe that's why my antiviral treatment failed. Maybe it could succeed if HSV is attacked from multiple sides (eg. by adding glutamine, celebrex or possibly miltefosine).

 

[Gondwanaland]

It's also interesting that -calcium seems to facilitate HSV entry into the cells. I always got gradually worse with calcium supplements and it slowly got better after discontinuation.

Is it possible that at some point this could lead to a calcium depletion / need to supplement with calcium (e.g. insomnia)?

by adding glutamine

Why glutamine? I read the previous page and found the answer, which prompted another question: Glutamine can elevate ammonia, which calls for ornithine, citrulline, arginine. Of course taking arginine is out of question, then I suppose Glutamine should be balanced with ornithine, citrulline and lysine?

 

[Wonkmonk]

Is it possible that at some point this could lead to a calcium depletion / need to supplement with calcium (e.g. insomnia)?

I took calcium supplements and they cause gradual, but severe worsening of all symptoms and development of new symptoms on three separate occasion with and without co-administration of Valacyclovir.

I do believe that there is a mild problem with calcium depletion. I have low-normal or even below normal calcium all the time, even though I took several thousand units of Vitamin D and up to 1000mg of calcium supplements. I also have mild hyperparathyroidism most of the time.

Interestingly, during the Valacyclovir treatment, I had normal calcium serum level (both total calcium and ionized calcium). So there is definitely something going on with calcium.

I don't think I need supplements so far, because hyperparathyroidism is mild and markers like alkaline phosphatase is normal.

Glutamine can elevate ammonia, which calls for ornithine, citrulline, arginine. Of course taking arginine is out of question, then I suppose Glutamine should be balanced with ornithine, citrulline and lysine?

Wooo...I don't know to be honest. As always, I'm probably going to try it and see what happens

 

[Wonkmonk]

Maybe I am missing it (too much brainfog), but does anyone see what doses of Famciclovir and Celecoxib they used in this study?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5328426/

 

[Hip]

Celecoxib + antiviral sounds very interesting and the risk profile seems to be ok.

I would be a little concerned about the stomach perforation side effect of long-term celecoxib, which can be serious and life threatening. But several things can mitigate the risks of this, such as proton pump inhibitor drugs, and I have seen studies that vitamin C or grape seed extract protect against aspirin-induced stomach damage (aspirin is another NSAID like celecoxib). Pridgen I believe uses proton pump inhibitors in his protocol.

I have in the past crushed a celecoxib into fine powder and applied that powder to a large area of my body skin, adding a few drops of water to help it sink in. This transdermal approach may be safer, and transdermal does work, according to this study.

Is this the study you mean?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28260944

Yes, that's Pridgen's clinical trial. There is an article about his protocol here.


But don't forget that the main pathogens that are associated with ME/CFS are: CVB, echovirus, EBV, HHV-6, CMV, parvovirus B19 and Chlamydia pneumoniae.

 

[Wonkmonk]

But don't forget that the main pathogens that are associated with ME/CFS are: CVB, echovirus, EBV, HHV-6, CMV, parvovirus B19 and Chlamydia pneumoniae.

Yes, that is of course correct, but I think my super-high HSV-1 titers suggest that it may be worth giving the Pridgen protocol a try.

Did you try it transdermally with famvir? Did it have any positive effects?

 

[Hip]

Maybe I am missing it (too much brainfog), but does anyone see what doses of Famciclovir and Celecoxib they used in this study?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5328426/

They have not stated the doses in the study, apparently because it has been kept as a proprietary information, as "pharmaceutical companies or other funding sources would not back a product composed of already approved drugs if the dosages were put in the public realm". Ref: 1

But in Dr Pridgen's patent, he states doses of Famvir 250 mg twice daily + celecoxib 200 mg twice daily were used in a clinical trial. See this post.

Did you try it transdermally with famvir? Did it have any positive effects?

I was trying COX-2 inhibitors mainly to see if their anti-inflammatory effect would improve symptoms of my generalized anxiety disorder, which they did a bit. My anxiety symptoms seem to be driven by brain inflammation, and I found anti-neuroinflammation supplements reduced the anxiety.

Bee propolis has COX-2 inhibitor effects, and I was taking around 4 grams of propolis daily as an anti-inflammatory treatment for anxiety, which did help the anxiety to a degree. Interestingly, propolis has been described in this study as a "potent" antiviral for HSV-1 in vitro and in vivo; it's possible this antiviral effect comes from its COX-2 inhibition.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Thanks so much for the link here.

simmaronresearch.com/2017/03/valley-death-fibromyalgia-pridgen/

What is described there about Celebrex + Famvir is pretty astonishing given that it's a rather low dose of Famvir and a very short timeframe (16 weeks only). Given that Dr Lerner goes up to 4,000 - 6,000 mg of Famvir/Valacyclovir (8-12-fold dose) and recommends 1 year of treatment minimum and Dr Montoya uses as far as I know 1000-2000mg (2-4 fold dose) and says up to 5 years of treatment might be optimal, we might not even have seen what this method might accomplish if done with greater doses and for a longer time.

But of course there is the caveat: It's FM, not CFS, and we don't know if higher doses really have a better effect.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Perhaps back to gemcitabine. Would it be possible to solicit Dr Chia's opinion of this drug? He has used Ribavirin already with some success. Perhaps that therapy would be more sucessful by adding low- or moderate-dose gemcitabine, as the article says the two drugs act synergistically.

Perhaps it might also be an interesting option for Fluge/Mella, because it is a chemotherapeutic agent and afaik they are oncologists.

I read a bit about gemcitabine and as I understand it, it has very broad and strong antiviral properties. My first thought was: Couldn't one find a combination of drugs including gemcitabine that is so broad and potent that it would be effective against all potential CFS causing viruses?

That combination could be used in a study to find out or help illuminate, if a virus is responsible at all. Fluge/Mella think it's not a virus, so depending on the results, such a study could help substantiate their opinion or refute it.

Btw, I haven't seen evidence, but with its broad antiviral spectrum, there is some likelihood that it might also be effective against HHV7 (see other thread).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Wooo...I don't know to be honest. As always, I'm probably going to try it and see what happens

I just remembered:

Whenever I supplemented with glutamine, my RBC and WBC count would go up for a while and then decrease. Glutamine promotes cell proliferation and will increase the need for vitamins and minerals.

During my last glutamine course I had to stop it because it started causing severe diarrhea.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I have L-Lysin, L-Glutamine and Propolis now. What would be the suggestion how much to take to have an effect on HSV-1?

 

[Hip]

@Wonkmonk, I'll PM you in order not to take this thread off topic.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Thanks for the PM, and sorry for the offtopic

 

[Wonkmonk]

Herbal Cox-2 inhibitors:

https://www.hchs.edu/literature/COX-2 Inhibitors.pdf

Most were already on @Hip's list, but I think some are new, e.g. hops.

"a hops extract high in alpha acids exhibited COX-2 inhibition over 9 hours, equivalent to ibuprofen 400 mg."

 

[BadBadBear]

Herbal Cox-2 inhibitors:

https://www.hchs.edu/literature/COX-2 Inhibitors.pdf

Most were already on @Hip's list, but I think some are new, e.g. hops.

"a hops extract high in alpha acids exhibited COX-2 inhibition over 9 hours, equivalent to ibuprofen 400 mg."

Hmmm, good find @Wonkmonk and looks easy to source. I'd love to try it!

 

[Wonkmonk]

Hmmm, good find @Wonkmonk and looks easy to source. I'd love to try it!

Thanks!

I don't remember: Was Fenugreek on the list already? Depending on the extraction method, it seems to inhibit either Cox-1 or Cox-2 quite substantially.

Also very interesting is the comparison to medications. Vioxx seems to be very specific for Cox-1. Aspirine and Celebrex seem to complement each other nicely. Naproxen inhibits both types very effectively.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-seed-extracts-at-250-lg-ml-4a_fig4_251575203