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"Got ME? Just SMILE!" - Media coverage of the SMILE trial…..

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
It may be simpler but what often matters is keeping lines of communication open.

I think there are plenty of channels of communication open, as we have seen, at the Invest Colloquium. What we don't need is the temptation of 'open channels' or 'funding' which is dependent upon anyone who has any connection to the BPS school. It is a simple as that. Had ME advocacy used 'zero tolerance' in this regard from dot we wouldn't be in the mess we're presently in. No collaboration which has linked anyone working on this disease with any member of the BPS school and its associated cabals and funding ventures (think 'Linbury Trust for eg) has resulted in anything that's good for pwme. They have always made our lives worse. I'm about to enter year 48 of this disease as the New Year beckons and I'd like to think we could shrug off the nonsense that this ridiculous band of reason-less individuals have foist upon us all. There should be no marriages of convenience. 'Expediency' has only ended in abject failure as we are now seeing with EC ruling the roost at the CMRC despite publishing quack studies which any sane and reasonable person would presume should never pass ethical approval. That they have done says something very worrying about ethics committees in the UK and not that the work itself has ANY merit whatsoever.
'No research' is better than vested/ biased research because at least 'no research' can't be used to produce unreliable advice about best practice.
 

Jo Best

Senior Member
Messages
1,032
It may be simpler but what often matters is keeping lines of communication open.
I think there are plenty of channels of communication open, as we have seen, at the Invest Colloquium. What we don't need is the temptation of 'open channels' or 'funding' which is dependent upon anyone who has any connection to the BPS school. It is a simple as that. Had ME advocacy used 'zero tolerance' in this regard from dot we wouldn't be in the mess we're presently in. No collaboration which has linked anyone working on this disease with any member of the BPS school and its associated cabals and funding ventures (think 'Linbury Trust for eg) has resulted in anything that's good for pwme. They have always made our lives worse. I'm about to enter year 48 of this disease as the New Year beckons and I'd like to think we could shrug off the nonsense that this ridiculous band of reason-less individuals have foist upon us all. There should be no marriages of convenience. 'Expediency' has only ended in abject failure as we are now seeing with EC ruling the roost at the CMRC despite publishing quack studies which any sane and reasonable person would presume should never pass ethical approval. That they have done says something very worrying about ethics committees in the UK and not that the work itself has ANY merit whatsoever.
'No research' is better than vested/ biased research because at least 'no research' can't be used to produce unreliable advice about best practice.
I was looking for this link to this example when @lilpink posted her reply: https://www.dropbox.com/s/92m09l9tq55pihh/Behind the Scenes - Research Collaborative.pdf?dl=0
 
Messages
26
Location
Gloucestershire
The problem with PEM is that we know what we experience but it is very easy to make it mean whatever you want. Anyone who digs the garden on Sunday experiences PEM on Monday.

What we have is much more subtle. I have seen it described as being able to lift a bag of potatoes over your head once, but unable to lift a spoon to your mouth five times, which sums it up for me.

Also the DELAY in experiencing symptoms was one of the hallmarks of original ME. Three days after I have done something (which I managed fine at the time) I can be bedridden. The CPET testing explains this delay as every day you do not get back to your original level until you have no more reserves. This is one of the reasons I think it is so vital. In fact while the immune studies are important it is this testing that should have priority and it amazes me that it doesn't get pushed all the time.

It has become apparent that our PEM is just an outward sign of a broken aerobic respiration system and THAT is the cardinal symptom of ME, one which cannot be diluted down by the BPS crowd.

Any involvement of Crawley and friends with MEGA automatically makes it a bad thing. They cannot understand proper science and they twist everything to serve their own purposes. This has been going on for decades and is unlikely to change now. We keep crediting them with good intentions because it is hard to believe that evidence will not make them change their minds but it has never happened. People get ME and think that all that is needed is proof and everything will be fine but it has never happened.

I predict that positive results for the rituximab studies or a less stressful test for a low anaerobic threshold that is easily administered will not change their minds. They will simply peel off anyone with a positive tests and then insist that everyone else has CFS and continue with their "treatments"
After digging the garden you can get pain but not PE Malaise, ie feeling ill, muzzy headed and Flu symptoms as well.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I think there are plenty of channels of communication open, as we have seen, at the Invest Colloquium. What we don't need is the temptation of 'open channels' or 'funding' which is dependent upon anyone who has any connection to the BPS school. It is a simple as that.

I have myself created channels beyond the colloquium context as part of my relationship with IiME - at their request. I fed back information to IiME because of those channels. I totally respect the position of IiME but there is no point in cutting off your own nose to spite your face. It is possible to be pragmatic without compromising principles. I learn a huge amount of useful information from Charles Shepherd despite not taking his particular stance. By working with Charles I have been able to help the Biobank team win important grants. It was attending the CMRC meeting in 2014 that gave me the ammunition to confront Peter White with his own abusive remarks in print. Should I not have gone (with the encouragement of IiME)? I don't think so, to be honest.
 

Jo Best

Senior Member
Messages
1,032
MEGA does seem to be contentious, but we are exerting as much influence as we can - and if we weren't, and it got funded, yikes!!! Best to have some involvement than no involvement - which means no patient voice - no influence, which was something that, at the CMRC conference, was being pushed as a VERY. GOOD. THING.
Hi Phil, welcome to the forum and best wishes. I understand your line of reasoning about patient involvement, but unfortunately, this has so far just enabled these very poor studies to be conducted, because funders prefer to know that research they fund is wanted by patients, it may even be a requirement by some medical research funders.

The PACE trial had the support and involvement of Action for ME, and in the context of the SMILE trial, it is unlikely that the first phase (the feasibility study) would have received ethical approval without the support of the patient organisations, Action for ME and AYME, which recently merged with AfME.

The ethics committee undertook to review its original decision under "the weight of correspondence received" from a range of sources, including other patient organisations, but a supportive letter from AYME CEO (now Director of AfME Children's Services) contributed to the committee's decision to uphold its favourable opinion of the SMILE feasibility study (which included children undertaking the LP training programme) and this led to the full trial.

(I'm not saying this to reflect on your decision to take part in the MEGA PAG by the way, or anyone else's, I just think it's important to note why this school of researchers have reason to be very happy for patient involvement, especially if it involves patient organisations that have proved so helpful in the past.)
 

MEMum

Senior Member
Messages
440
I haven't read all this thread yet. Too depressing.

The more I hear about LP, the more I think -

Child abuse, coercive control, medical abuse, Crawley should be struck off.

Adults with authority telling vulnerable children to keep secrets or the treatment won't work...


Haven't read thro all of this thread yet, but there is an excellent post on Joan McParland's FB page by Christine Fenton, 21 Sep at 10.35. Christine is an ex head writing re Child Protection
 

MEMum

Senior Member
Messages
440
Joan Mcparland also has an excellent graphic of the LP.
Joan Mcparland
23 September at 02:44 ·
I've been researching this disease for nearly 18 years and have discovered the cure. This is the enlightening (not Lightning) fast way to recover, I call the outcomes of my scientific research, the Chose Rubbish And Perish (CRAP) study.
Simply cut out and place these paper circles on the floor and follow the simple instructions in the diagram below.
Only £500 upfront so cheaper than other less effective 'treatments' strictly no refunds will be given.
No abusive comments or death threats will be tolerated or I'll stick pins in a voodoo doll with your name on it.

 

Art Vandelay

Senior Member
Messages
470
Location
Australia
On another thread, I argued that we need to point out how ridiculous the LP is.

We can criticise the biased methodology, lack of a control group and blinding etc until we're blue in the face, but experience has shown us that people (particularly journalists and doctors) simply don't care about those issues because they are scientifically illiterate.

I was thinking some very basic graphics that could easily be shared on twitter might help with the message. These are a few of my ideas:

lp.png


lp3.png


(I know it's very rough as I'm still a bit too brainfogged to do anything elaborate. I don't really have the energy for engagement on social media, so I'm happy for people to use these or if they'd like to adapt them
for themselves.)
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
upload_2017-9-25_16-48-45.png


upload_2017-9-25_16-49-20.png


"I am offended", "be open", are these q********s ever going to change the record and answer / make a substantive point about anything? Same shit, different quack.

(q********s blanked out because I'm not sure if we're allowed to say "quacktards" any more).
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Location
The other side.
As far as I am concerned if it isn't a word you can say it, it not being a word removes any threat of litigation (changes it from 'actionable defamation' to 'nonsense') lol

edit - I am not a legal person, (I live in the UK and as far as I know none of us are, the only legal persons in the UK are corporations - possibly :p), so nothing I say should be construed as legal advice, legally correct, or anything apart from the ravings of a...........
 
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lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
It was attending the CMRC meeting in 2014 that gave me the ammunition to confront Peter White with his own abusive remarks in print. Should I not have gone (with the encouragement of IiME)? I don't think so, to be honest.

But presumably that encouragement was only *because* the CMRC existed at all? Not because Invest in ME felt it was a useful organisation in and of itself... quite clearly they don't think that and never have done so as far as I'm aware? My point is that the CMRC need never have existed had it not been a vehicle largely dreamt up by Holgate, to create big data sets that could weild information in a form suitable for the BPS school and the Establishment to use for their own ends. The Link that Jo posted above makes it absolutely clear that this was the intended purpose... (https://www.dropbox.com/s/92m09l9tq55pihh/Behind the Scenes - Research Collaborative.pdf?dl=0). So your observation re attendance is moot in a conversation where the thrust is about whether the organisation should exist or not, even if you think you learned something, because its very existence sways the power base in the UK right away from the patient, and individual 'connection's' such as you describe, whilst welcome, do not make up for that huge imbalance.

As I observed elsewhere, I think it's clear that some speakers to the CMRC Conference / members of the CMRC (I'll give Peter Rowe as an example of the former) are decent researchers, very possibly (probably?) surprised to find themselves in the middle of a battleground not of their making because there has been a certain amount of 'creativity' apropos their invitation to the event/ organisation in the first place. Peter Rowe is a useful example because his recent talk made it clear that he had huge issues with Peter White et al and their very strange observations about OI in ME (see 6 minutes:
) .
Either Peter Rowe is unaware of the back story of the CMRC and to whom he was addressing these remarks (in which case he was indeed 'duped'), or he was exceedingly aware of the controversy and was making very pointed barbs at Peter White who was presumably in the audience? Now surely for patients (and as a patient I have a prime and unassailable vested interest which trumps, imo, researchers etc when it comes to the desired direction of advocacy) it is better that decent researchers aren't duped into being cogs in a machinery which is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and are gently steered toward truly collaborative exercises elsewhere (where their strengths would be warmly welcomed , I'm sure) that don't require signing up to very odd rules of engagement where FOI requests and Parliamentary Questions are seen as forms of harassment?

It is to be welcomed that researchers such as yourself are brought to the field, but given what you must now know as a result of your engagement with Invest in ME about the appalling way in which people with this disease have been treated, it behoves people with your influence to do right by patients..and those patients who are engaged enough to be cognisant of the political history of this disease, almost to a man (and a few old birds), want to see a terrain in which conflicts of interest do not persist. Surely that is perfectly reasonable? And the CMRC, from its little newborn-baby-cotton-socks to its now slightly gouty falling-apart-at-the-seams presentation at the recent Conference (even Holgate admitted it hadn't done what he wanted it to do) is a tangle of vested interests so tightly knitted into its DNA that, imo, it should be put out of (its) our misery and laid to rest.
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
On another thread, I argued that we need to point out how ridiculous the LP is.

We can criticise the biased methodology, lack of a control group and blinding etc until we're blue in the face, but experience has shown us that people (particularly journalists and doctors) simply don't care about those issues because they are scientifically illiterate.

I was thinking some very basic graphics that could easily be shared on twitter might help with the message. These are a few of my ideas:

View attachment 24058

View attachment 24063

(I know it's very rough as I'm still a bit too brainfogged to do anything elaborate. I don't really have the energy for engagement on social media, so I'm happy for people to use these or if they'd like to adapt them
for themselves.)

I agree.. I think if the general public were aware of what LP actually meant they would just laugh in bewilderment.
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
690
Location
Scotland
After digging the garden you can get pain but not PE Malaise, ie feeling ill, muzzy headed and Flu symptoms as well.

That is my point. We know what we mean by PEM but if you ask someone if they get worse after exercise even healthy people can say they do. People with heart disease have a worsening of symptoms when they exercise and people with MS often have to take to their beds after exertion. But when tested by CPET, MS sufferers did as well or better on the second day of testing.

The BPS brigade can bend PEM into almost anything and they already imply it is because of deconditioning. So I am not reassured that a blood bank that includes people with PEM but in the hands of Crawley and the like will help us at all.

People with ME have been in the strange situation since the invention of CFS that the definitions are often not descriptions of the people studied, fatigue is not an essential part of ME and I never complained of it to a doctor. I have never fitted Fukuda, even though I was diagnosed with ME before Tahoe.