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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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Delayed orthostatic intolerance

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
I'd like to point out that POTS is not entirely different from NMH. Either bp or pulse pressure is likely to drop over about half an hour even though the heart is racing in an attempt to compensate. (I have more traditional NMH, for which I can compensate somewhat by doing things no doctor ever told me.) The problem patients with a diagnosis of POTS or NMH get into is that the vast majority of doctors stop there, telling patients they will simply have to live with this mysterious condition somehow. Those doctors may even prescribe psychotropic drugs -- which aggravate OI -- to deal with "panic attacks" or "depression". Another medical favorite are beta blockers to lower heart rate. Guess what happens to OI. (There are cases where these are appropriate, but you must be very careful that lower heart rate doesn't leave the patient largely confined to bed.)

There was a local case of a conspicuous suicide which made the news. The woman had a definite diagnosis of POTS. Nobody seems to have told her to limit time spent upright, get her feet up periodically, and maintain hydration and electrolytes, or warned her about the danger of making very bad decisions when your brain is short of oxygenated blood. She jumped off an airport parking garage during a trip. This was a preventable tragedy.
 

Kyla

ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ
Messages
721
Location
Canada
@Valentijn posted on another thread:



I have delayed OI - I don't faint on standing or (unless I have a new bug or something) feel dizzy but can't stand for long and have to lie down regularly during the day and have my feet up for most of the rest of the time.

I've done the poor man's tilt test and come close to the POTS criteria but not close enough to get a diagnosis in the UK (I fail because I don't immediately collapse). However, if I keep standing, my heart rate continues to rise and rise.

My impression is that 'delayed OI' isn't widely recognised as a diagnosis, but that doesn't seem to stop it from significantly disabling me!

And Valentijn's post suggests this is common in ME.

Are clinicians/researchers missing an important symptom?

Should we be raising the issue?

Are different treatments required from treatments for the more usual forms of OI?

Hi @Sasha

Passing out is not part of the diagnostic criteria, so you could still have POTS.

This seems to be a common doctor misconception (for non-experts), along with the idea that it requires an extreme change in blood pressure (it doesn't, and many experts consider a change of more than 20 to rule POTS out)

The criteria are:
Heart rate increase of greater than 30bpm, or heart-rate > 120 within 10 minutes of standing, in the presence of symptoms (not exclusively syncope - can be dizziness, lightheadedness, nausea, etc)

Most people with POTS (with or without ME) don't regularly faint. Many only pass out on tilt, or not at all but have frequent pre-syncope.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Hi @Sasha

Passing out is not part of the diagnostic criteria, so you could still have POTS.

This seems to be a common doctor misconception (for non-experts), along with the idea that it requires an extreme change in blood pressure (it doesn't, and many experts consider a change of more than 20 to rule POTS out)

The criteria are:
Heart rate increase of greater than 30bpm, or heart-rate > 120 within 10 minutes of standing, in the presence of symptoms (not exclusively syncope - can be dizziness, lightheadedness, nausea, etc)

Most people with POTS (with or without ME) don't regularly faint. Many only pass out on tilt, or not at all but have frequent pre-syncope.

Thanks, but I know - and I meet those criteria, and said all this to the cardiologist who was booting me out, despite this. You're right about doctors and misconceptions.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Are clinicians/researchers missing an important symptom?
Every ME/CFS specialist I've seen recognized (and treated) less common types of OI, so I think it's well understood among knowledgeable ME/CFS clinicians.

I suspect the problem in other medical environments is the usual one -- lazy thinking on the part of GPs, some specialists, and medical "businesses" (NHS, HMOs, large clinics) whose focus is on cost containment. They're looking for the clear, easy answer and not willing to spend the mental energy (or money) to learn about or understand the less common forms. If it's not overt POTS with immediate response, they don't care. It doesn't usually help to give them publishied information to show that other forms exist; they won't bother to read it.

I have heard that a few cardiologists understand autonomic dysfunction, but electrophysiologists or autonomic specialists are more likely to recognize and treat delayed OI symptoms.
Should we be raising the issue?
In what context? :) ME/CFS specialists and researchers who truly do understand the disease (Klimas, Montoya, etc) are very well aware of the problem.

If you're asking of we should be raising the issue with our own doctors -- absolutely! OI can be a major player in limiting functionality. Whether you can get them to pay any attention is another issue. :rolleyes: One can try insisting on a TTT, a test for vasopressin (ADH), or aldosterone.

One can also keep a record of HR and BP to show the doctor that they are abnormal. Measurements first morning (before you move around), and several times during the day can be helpful in convincing a doctor that something is not right. You can also try Dr Bell's Simple Test for Orthostatic Intolerance and take that data to a doctor. This can be helpful if you need some kind of tachycardia medication such as a beta-blocker or a calcium-channel blocker. A single measurement at a doctor's office is not going to give them much information and is easily dismissed as "doctor's office stress".

Are different treatments required from treatments for the more usual forms of OI?
One of the more common factors in OI in ME/CFS is low blood volume. This can't necessarily be fixed by increased salt and fluid intake if your hormone system is out of whack. Florinef and desmopressin are sometimes used to correct hormone deficiencies (vasopressin, aldosterone) that are causing low blood volume. Frequently conditions that require desmopressin or Florinef are diagnosed clinically, so it's important to know what symptoms the doctor is looking for and make a point of mentioning those symptoms if you have them. It does not pay to be shy or to understate the situation. Doctors tend not to treat if they think the symptoms are not bothering you much. Squeaky wheel and all that.... ;)

Tachycardia meds (beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers) are also used if tachycardia is an issue. I know midodrine is also used in some cases, but I don't know what indications would suggest that med over others.

Thanks, but I know - and I meet those criteria, and said all this to the cardiologist who was booting me out, despite this. You're right about doctors and misconceptions.
You could try finding another cardiologist, or better, an electrophysiologist. Take in some abnormal data and insist that it be put in your medical record if the doctor tries to dismiss you. Tell them you want it there because if you have a serious problem later and end up in the ER, you want it in your file that you have a history of abnormal HR and BP. That might encourage him/her to look into your problem further simply on CYA grounds. ;)

I think we are all finding that we cannot depend on our local physicians to treat us adequately. They're under-informed at best, and mis-informed at worse. To get adequate treatment we have to be the squeaky wheel.

We can't be passive anymore and trust that our local physicians know what they're doing. We need to take them data. We need to insist on treatment. We need not to understate our symptoms. We need to be absolutely clear that our current symptoms are not acceptable and that we know there are tests and treatments for them. As long as they are working with insufficient knowledge, they are not the experts.

I'm not suggesting that we don't take the advice of knowledgeable physicians. I discuss all treatment guidance with my ME/CFS specialist and have, so far, always followed her guidance for or against various treatments. But I do that because I know she's knowledgeable and thinking, we discuss treatments, and she explains her thinking to me.

I no longer accept "Because I'm the expert and I say so" from any doctor. I insist on explanation and proof... except when it's clear the doctor is such an idiot that it makes more sense to seek out a different doc. :rolleyes:
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
In what context? :) ME/CFS specialists and researchers who truly do understand the disease (Klimas, Montoya, etc) are very well aware of the problem.

If you're asking of we should be raising the issue with our own doctors -- absolutely! OI can be a major player in limiting functionality. Whether you can get them to pay any attention is another issue. :rolleyes: One can try insisting on a TTT, a test for vasopressin (ADH), or aldosterone.

Thanks, SOC, that's all very helpful stuff.

In terms of awareness-raising, I meant with the medical profession in general. In the UK, we don't have any (medical) ME specialists and it mustn't be left to clued-up PWME to raise it with their own doctors while the less clued-up are left to rot. I think we need national awareness among all GPs, because they're the ones who will be treating most PWME.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
In terms of awareness-raising, I meant with the medical profession in general. In the UK, we don't have any (medical) ME specialists and it mustn't be left to clued-up PWME to raise it with their own doctors while the less clued-up are left to rot. I think we need national awareness among all GPs, because they're the ones who will be treating most PWME.
That's for darned sure! I think that general idea was the point of the IOM report, that there is a large group of severely underserved patients not being adequately treated, and even being mistreated, in the primary care setting and that we need to change that ASAP.

The problem is how to get GPs in any and all countries to understand and treat even the simplest and most obvious symptoms of ME/CFS like OI, sleep dysfunction, and pain. We have many years of misinformation to overcome... to say nothing of general medical inertia and the unwillingness of many physicians to learn something new, or worse, change their minds.

In the end, though, I'm not convinced ME/CFS should be treated exclusively in the primary care setting any more than other very serious complex diseases are. There are far too many interacting systems involved. More in-depth knowledge of immunology, neurology, endocrinology, cardiology, and infectious disease is needed than any GP can be reasonably expected to have.

However, if PCPs (GPs) had a half-page document with standard treatments for OI, sleep, pain, and other 'everyday' ME/CFS symptoms, it would be of some help. Not that such a thing as standard treatment exists for ME/CFS. We're still too much of a mixed bag. Maybe when we've identified some subsets, or divided into completely different illness groups, we'll have a hope of standardizing treatment. And even then GPs are not going to be able to deal with the biggest ME/CFS issues. We'll still need specialists for that.
 

Dr.Patient

There is no kinship like the one we share!
Messages
505
Location
USA
I'm beginning to understand that autonomic dysfunction is the second biggest abnormality in mecfs after mitochondrial dysfunction, if not the first.

This is what prevents the body from giving us signals when we overexerted in the first place. The response of the autonomic nervous system is delayed and inadequate, so we keep exerting ourselves.

Then that response becomes overcorrected, with fast and abnormal responses to activities, preventing us from doing even basic ADLs.

There is a major screwup here. Physicians can see the dysfunction eventually, which eventually becomes manifest in heart rate or bp abnormalities.

But fixing that autonomic dysfunction is not possible at this time, hence the prolonged suffering.

The only recoveries here are spontaneous, in the lucky ones.
 

Dr.Patient

There is no kinship like the one we share!
Messages
505
Location
USA
@Valentijn Thank you!

From this link

http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2013/02/mystery-disease-unraveled-by-stanford-neurologist.html

Another frustration for patients can be the slow rate of recovery. The autonomic system's nerve fibers do not have a sheath that guides their growth and acts as a protective layer. Without that protection, they are more fragile; without that guide, they take longer to regain strength and normal behavior. "It doesn't mean that regrowth won't happen," Jaradeh said. "It's just a long tunnel before you get to the light."

There are yet no cures for autonomic system disorders. But recognizing that such a disorder is the source of a patient's symptoms allows doctors to treat those symptoms more effectively.
 

Dr.Patient

There is no kinship like the one we share!
Messages
505
Location
USA
Here is the Stanford Autonomic Disorders Program

https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-clinics/autonomic-disorders-program/conditions.html

Found some interesting things---

Autoimmune autonomic ganglionopathy

An autoimmune condition in which your immune system damages a receptor in the autonomic ganglia, part of the peripheral autonomic nerve fiber.

Could this be the dorsal root ganglionitis found in Sophie Mirza's autopsy?


Post-infectious autonomic dysfunction
Disorders that occur when the autonomic nervous system is not functioning properly as a result of infection.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Here is the Stanford Autonomic Disorders Program

https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-clinics/autonomic-disorders-program/conditions.html

Found some interesting things---

Autoimmune autonomic ganglionopathy

An autoimmune condition in which your immune system damages a receptor in the autonomic ganglia, part of the peripheral autonomic nerve fiber.

Could this be the dorsal root ganglionitis found in Sophie Mirza's autopsy?


Post-infectious autonomic dysfunction
Disorders that occur when the autonomic nervous system is not functioning properly as a result of infection.

Wish I could teleport to Stanford...
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
If you are limited to doctors in a plan, how do you figure out which would be the best fit? I'm looking at cardiologists.
Here it seems to be part of cardiology. Its a good fit. I don't think neurocardiology exists.

I do not have OI a lot of the time. I need to explain I have NMH with high blood pressure. The high bp protects me a lot of the time. When I am pacing myself, rested, and not in a relapse. or in other words have a tiny amount of energy, then my OI goes away. If I am not sleeping, doing too much, or wiped out, I pass out worse than a narcoleptic .. when I stand up, walk up stairs, or similar.

I wonder what the relationship between exhaustion and OI is.? The more exhausted you are, particularly if you have low bp all the time, the more vulnerable you might be. That might mean ME and OI are particularly bad together. Indeed, ME might be what is driving it for many.

There is a long form of the tilt table test that is sometimes used that possibly catches the delay. Due to time and cost constraints I suspect its often deliberately overlooked. The TTT should last an hour unless you react earlier. They also use an adrenaline analogue to induce it faster in a lot of tests.
 

out2lunch

Senior Member
Messages
204
Don't get me started.
Oh jeepers. Lopressor. Love/hate relationship. It allows me to take the necessary thyroid dosing my body needs by keeping my HR down and palpitations at bay. But the side effects. Oh, the side effects. :cry:

If I didn't take periodic vacations from this drug, I wouldn't be typing this right now. Dark depression leading to hopelessness isn't exactly the big pharma marketing material seen in flashy TV ad campaigns.
 

out2lunch

Senior Member
Messages
204
FWIW… I've seen Dr Jaradeh @ Stanford (he runs the Autonomic Disorders Clinic) twice, and he's probably the best neurologist I've ever had dealings with. And there have been more than I can count in my lifetime.

That being said, Dr Jaradeh wouldn't be my first choice for diagnostics if you already know that your particular flavor of OI is delayed. Jaradeh does a 20 min TT test along with several others like QSART, so he failed to find my delayed OI. I had a previous one done elsewhere that was 45 min long, and the OI kicked in around 35-40 min with elevated HR, hyperventilation, dizziness, et al. The HMO doctors who did that test claimed I had a "self resolving panic attack" which was totally bogus according to Dr Karen Friday @ Stanford Cardiology, whom I had seen several years before Jaradeh was hired.

She said it was obviously delayed OI because panic attacks don't "self resolve" until you pass out from the hyperventilation, which I didn't do. The hyperventilation resolved the elevated HR with additional oxygen, which was my body's stop-gap measure for hypoxia. The blood was still pooled in my lower extremities when they halted the test shortly after the hyperventilation stopped. When I got off the table, my knees gave out from under me. I would have crashed hard on the floor had the cardio nurse not been supporting me at the time. Of course, none of that was written up in the report since the doctor running the test had already left the room. :bang-head:

Anyway, Dr Jaradeh is first rate. But his 20 min TT test is not a good fit for delayed OI.
 

minkeygirl

But I Look So Good.
Messages
4,678
Location
Left Coast
I'm just now putting together that some of my problems, when put together, may be some type of disautnomia.

I need someone to put all the pieces together.
 

out2lunch

Senior Member
Messages
204
There is a long form of the tilt table test that is sometimes used that possibly catches the delay. Due to time and cost constraints I suspect its often deliberately overlooked. The TTT should last an hour unless you react earlier. They also use an adrenaline analogue to induce it faster in a lot of tests.
Just posted about my experience with this. And you are correct that many doctors don't do the longer version of TT, including Dr Jaradeh @ Stanford. Probably cost is the main factor.

But for delayed OI due to slow pooling of blood in the lower extremities and abdomen, adrenaline provocation won't work. The onset of the OI is based on how quickly the blood pools, which for many of us with Ehlers-Danlos, doesn't happen too quickly, knock on wood. It's about venous physiology more so than ANS dysfunction. Although ANS stuff isn't completely absent, either.

Folks like me with the dreaded FMS/EDS combo know exactly what I'm talking about. :grumpy:
 

Kyla

ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ
Messages
721
Location
Canada
If you are limited to doctors in a plan, how do you figure out which would be the best fit? I'm looking at cardiologists.
The average cardiologist knows squat about autonomic issues.

The relevant specialists are sometimes cardiologists, sometimes electro-physiologists (subspecialty of cardiology) and sometimes neurologists. There aren't a lot of docs who specialize in this.

I had an appointment with a regular cardiologist to rule out cardiac issues that happened to be scheduled a few days after I got the POTS diagnosis. She was horrified that I had been told to eat more salt, kept taking my blood pressure instead of heartrate, and was mystified that I was symptomatic while sitting in a chair ;)
And this was actually a doctor who seemed like she was trying to help (she had never heard of ME, so no bias)

Your best bet might be to find a local Dysautonomia group and ask who they recommend.
If it is anything like Canada autonomic specialists are few and far between. There are only two in my province and they are booked years out.