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Clear need for B2, but not tolerating it. How to get out of the maze?

picante

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Little Bluestem said:
However I doubt that T4 is needed for that conversion, despite the fact that my notes say that it is. T4 is the inactive form of the hormone. The body converts T4 to active T3 as it is needed. I would guess that it is really T3 that takes part in the conversion.
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I came to the same conclusion, Little Blue: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/i-need-a-plan.37854/page-2#post-603175

And I just increased to 3 doses of P-5'-P yesterday (5 mg each). I didn't even wake up with potassium deficiency -- not during the night, and not in the morning!

The main thing I've learned so far is to stay away from AdenoB12 while I'm ramping up B2. And I'm on a tiny dose of MethylB12.

Despite that, my low back pain has not returned, which I interpret to mean that the P-5'-P is making methylation happen. Probably in combination with a slightly more effective thyroid hormone formula. (I say slightly because I have fewer hypo symptoms on it -- my body temps haven't really gone up, and my BP is still fairly low, but the systolic is now over 100 most of the time.)

I'm feeling more energetic (lots of gardening!) and happier. Isn't it wondrous? :angel:
 
jason30

jason30

Senior Member
Messages
516
Location
Europe
I read this thread with a lot of interest. Especially since I want to start with improving methylation.
I have read that P5P and Vitamin b2 could make methylation happen. Is this like a personal thing or adviced for anyone who wants to start with improving methylation?
 
Little Bluestem

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
It is probably a more personal thing. There are threads that discuss methylation more directly in the Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation sub-forum of the Treatment and Therapy forum in the Symptoms and Treatment section. Revised Simplified Methylation Protocol (August 25, 2012 revision) and Documents by Rich Van Konynenburg: Parts 1-7 would be good places to start.
 
ahmo

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@jason30 There's a link in my signature to Methylation for Dummies. Caledonia has a number of links that would be very helpful for beginning methylation improvement, including videos. Yes, it's very personal, and generally takes some trial and error to determine what works for you. Rich VanK's lprotocol, the SMP, includes HydroxyB12 and folinic form of folate. Neither of those worked for me. Freddd's Protocol has been my salvation.

I've had remarkable results from FMN form of B2. And somewhere along the line, my need for high p5p has resolved. I wrote about my FMN experience here, including some comments from others. Some of those comments suggest that FMN might make a lot of other things work, which it did for me.
 
picante

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
picante said:
And I just increased to 3 doses of P-5'-P yesterday (5 mg each).
Click to expand...

picante said:
Despite that, my low back pain has not returned, which I interpret to mean that the P-5'-P is making methylation happen.
Click to expand...

I just realized I wrote P-5'-P when I meant R-5'-P. Riboflavin, not pyrodoxal. B2, not B6. I take B6 only once every few days, and don't notice much from taking it.

I'm still at 3 X 5 mg R-5'-P. And feeling rather tired from being in overdrive. Like most of us, I still want to do much more than I can (I organized a birthday party for my husband).

I'm not tolerating much MeB12 at all (Bio-Alternatives liquid B12). Any more than one drop of this on my skin makes me incredibly potassium deficient, to the point where I can't keep up; taking all that potassium then triggers deficiencies of zinc and B1. Everything goes wildly out of balance, in other words.

I interpret that to mean that I still need to build up B2 and B1. @ahmo or @Gondwanaland, what do you think?

@jason30, I really like the "Methylation Made Easy" videos (4 short ones).
 
ahmo

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
picante said:
Any more than one drop of this on my skin makes me incredibly potassium deficient, to the point where I can't keep up;
Click to expand...
:eek: wow. are you taking a B Complex? Sorry, I don't have any clue for this. Well, One clue, maybe. Since I started FMN form of B2, I've needed (!) to reduce both MB12 and folate. So maybe increasing B2 is worth a try. Maybe taking your B2 sublingually, if that's the *magic* factor of FMN.:confused:
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
picante said:
Are there any antioxidants that help?
Click to expand...
He was getting help from quercetin and now his histamines are tamed but it antagonizes thiamine, perhaps it played a role in his worsening.

Strangely I tried to reintroduce Gamma E in our regime a few days ago and both of us felt horrible the following day.

I think I will try choline bitartrate...
 
picante

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
@ahmo, I've increased B2 from 15 to 20 mg with no ill effects. As long as I don't increase MeB12 and I don't take any AdB12, the balancing act between potassium-Zn-thiamine is manageable.

When I need lots of potassium, I have to raise thiamine along with it, or I get the horrid deficiency symptoms (pain just under my skull at C1, really irritable mood, enervating fatigue). Once I've taken extra thiamine, it sends me into zinc deficiency, and it takes A LOT of zinc to rebalance: I took 26 drops of ionic zinc one day (about 40 mg) before my left-side headache/neck spasm started to diminish.

And yes, @Gondwanaland, I take copper when I'm taking large amounts of zinc.

Surprisingly, the increase in B2 3 days ago triggered only a slight and temporary need for more potassium.
 
jason30

jason30

Senior Member
Messages
516
Location
Europe
picante said:
I'm not tolerating much MeB12 at all (Bio-Alternatives liquid B12). Any more than one drop of this on my skin makes me incredibly potassium deficient, to the point where I can't keep up; taking all that potassium then triggers deficiencies of zinc and B1. Everything goes wildly out of balance, in other words.

@jason30, I really like the "Methylation Made Easy" videos (4 short ones).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to the methylation video's.

What do you notice if you have potassium, zinc or b1 deficiency?

ahmo said:
@jason30 There's a link in my signature to Methylation for Dummies. Caledonia has a number of links that would be very helpful for beginning methylation improvement, including videos. Yes, it's very personal, and generally takes some trial and error to determine what works for you. Rich VanK's lprotocol, the SMP, includes HydroxyB12 and folinic form of folate. Neither of those worked for me. Freddd's Protocol has been my salvation.

I've had remarkable results from FMN form of B2. And somewhere along the line, my need for high p5p has resolved. I wrote about my FMN experience here, including some comments from others. Some of those comments suggest that FMN might make a lot of other things work, which it did for me.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ahmo!
I have read your blog about FMN, interesting! I am gonna test FMN out.
 
picante

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
jason30 said:
What do you notice if you have potassium, zinc or b1 deficiency?
Click to expand...
Potassium deficiency: Freddd has a loooong list of potassium deficiency symptoms. Mine is usually a neck spasm on the right side. Sometimes I have a loud heartbeat (it pounds, but not fast). Sometimes I have calf cramps.

Zinc deficiency: Neck spasm on the left side

Thiamine deficiency:
The symptom first experienced might be a sudden headache, hot flash, night sweat, panic attack, fit of rage, dizzy spell, nausea, spike in blood pressure, or enervating fatigue that continues to worsen until the condition becomes chronic and internal organs begin to fail.
Click to expand...
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/is-folate-inhibiting-thiamine-b-1.23392/#post-357739

My thiamine deficiency symptoms: overheating, dwelling on things I'm angry about, enervating fatigue, pain between axis & bottom of skull, headache at top/back of head. This all gets triggered by raising MeB12/mfolate too high, or by taking any amount of Lynch’s B-minus (1/8 capsule, for example).
 
jason30

jason30

Senior Member
Messages
516
Location
Europe
picante said:
Potassium deficiency: Freddd has a loooong list of potassium deficiency symptoms. Mine is usually a neck spasm on the right side. Sometimes I have a loud heartbeat (it pounds, but not fast). Sometimes I have calf cramps.

Zinc deficiency: Neck spasm on the left side

Thiamine deficiency:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/is-folate-inhibiting-thiamine-b-1.23392/#post-357739

My thiamine deficiency symptoms: overheating, dwelling on things I'm angry about, enervating fatigue, pain between axis & bottom of skull, headache at top/back of head. This all gets triggered by raising MeB12/mfolate too high, or by taking any amount of Lynch’s B-minus (1/8 capsule, for example).
Click to expand...

Thanks Picante, this gives me more insight into the complaints that may arise from those deficiencies. I often do not know where the complaints actually are coming from. I'm trying to gradually put the pieces together. Thanks again!
 
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