B2 I love you!

[Freddd]

B2, I LOVE YOU!

TL,DR: I have never been able to take methylfolate: even small doses caused excitotoxicity and inflammatory hell. But raising my B2 levels made me more able to tolerate methylfolate!

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Lately I heard that many of us MTHFR / MAO A people may need extra B2.

So I started supplementing with 35mg day, split into 3 doses. 1 dose as the 10.7 mg as my NatureMade B-complex w/ C with breakfast.. And then 1 quarter of a Solgar B2 50mg with lunch and dinner.

I learned from @Freddd and @picante that taking B2 drives the need for both potassium and methylfolate.

About 2 days after supplementing B2 I started to suddenly feel lower back inflammation, whole body inflammation, muscle inflammation, foggy thinking, itchy scalp, itchy face (around eyes) - even when I was resting and unstressed. I recognized some of these symptoms as signs of folate deficency that Freddd (in his comprehensive list of symptoms) and Picante posted about.

Yesterday morning I took 200mcg of methylfolate and 250mcg of mB12 - wow! It felt wonderful. My day was good until about 5pm and I started to feel inflammation, brain fog, 'blurryness', face and scalp itching. Yep - signs of methylfolate deficiency. I sucked on a crumb of a methylfolate tablet and felt some relief, was able to sleep.

This morning: 200mcg methylfolate and 1000mcg of Me + AbB12 sublingual. I felt an intense "startup" reaction - a body buzz like some sort of mind altering drug was going to kick in. I worried a little bit but went to look at my garden and it looked beautiful in the morning light - very natural, I felt relief. No it wasn't a 'bad reaction' - it was a good reaction of a nutrient I needed being slurped up by my cells. Life with folate! After an hour or two the intensity subsided and I felt really good - like I was methylating properly - maybe for the first time in ages. I could swear that I felt a sense of relief extremely similar to how I felt when taking supplemental glutathione. Could my glutathione production have noticably increased in just 2 or 3 hours??!?!

I have been studying Methylation on here for 10 months, lots of frustrating trials and errors, and today was my first taste of success. I hope and pray it will continue. Thank you for the education and inspiration, Phoenix Rising. And thank you B2.

Hi Sherpa,

Excellent. Now titrate as needed to keep things balanced. Balance is important. Too much of some things is a real problem as are too little. Get this working well, watch out for potassium and needing more folate. Somewhere along the way carnitine can be tried as it completes the energy production cycle for most of us. Getting these things going can feel really good. Healing nerves can hurt like hell. Don't confuse healing nerves with something going wrong. Be in good health. One thing (or group of things) to keep in mind is what got in the way before? What caused the problems before? This isn't easy. It shows you some things that don't work and if you can figure out why it can help avoid such things again, not that I should talk as I've made mistakes in all this for 11 years and it is still tough to get it right.

 

[JeremyLin]

Can u take b2 and b12 together?

 

[Sherpa]

Can u take b2 and b12 together?

I think so.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa please start thinking about consolidating your experiences in a blog post
Preferably very syntethically in form of topics to enable reading by foggy minds

 

[Sherpa]

One thing (or group of things) to keep in mind is what got in the way before? What caused the problems before?

Here's my hypothesis of why I couldn't handle methylfolate before:

• B2 deficient - MTHFR needs B2 to cycle properly. I was on nutrient-poor (vegetarian, vegan and dairy-free) diets for 15 years and ran out of Riboflavin.
• MAO-A R297R +/+: This enzyme defect leads to slower breakdown of serotonin, which can dysregulate other neurotransmitters. Taking methylfolate boosts neurotransmitters production and with MAO-A R297R +/+ dysfunction there is no brake... which led to intolerable feelings of overstimulation. Taking B2, 3xper day, for several weeks is said to help normalize MAO-A activity and improve methylfolate tolerance.
  
• Potassium deficient - I was drinking a small carton of coconut water (560mg K) per day but I really needed 2 or 3 times as much.
• Inflammation was not controlled - taking Mervia curcumin extract has helped keep things cool and allowed my body to handle folate better.
• SOD deficient - Dr. Lynch says balanced Zinc-copper levels are needed to make superoxide dismutase, which can be needed to process some of the Nirtic Oxide that methylfolate makes. Testing revealed me zinc copper levels were off, and I had symptoms of SOD deficiency so I supplemented it for several weeks before restarting methylfolate.
  
• Taking methylfolate in multivitamin form - when I came to this site 10 months ago, I was so overwhelmed with all the supplement info I couldn't deal with it. So I opted to try and simplify things by taking a multivitamin containing high dose Bs, minerals and 400mcg methylfolate. The combination was too much (especially the minerals and high Bs, I think.) Taking more pills that allow for individual adjustment is worth the hassle.
  

p.s. in an effort to raise my B2 levels I tested a Source Naturals Coenzymated B-2 sublingual. Very powerful form of getting FMN (active B2 metabolite) right into the blood. Could feel effects within minutes. Tablet has unpleasant bitter aftertaste, though.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa do you drink coffee? in addition to caffeine, it contains B2 and B5. I am getting a good energy boost from it.

 

[Sherpa]

@Sherpa do you drink coffee? in addition to caffeine, it contains B2 and B5.

Good to know about the B2! I have mixed feelings about coffee. Dr. Myhill says caffeine activates the enzyme that helps recycle ADP back into ATP and can be a good boost for CFS sufferers. I believe this is true and it works. Caffeine is also said to raise homocysteine levels and mine are pretty high. I drink it when I am crashed and need a recharge, but not on a daily basis.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I drink it when I am crashed and need a recharge, but not on a daily basis.

I haven't drunk coffee in like 1.5 years, restarted a couple of days ago and today I needed 2 shots (not American watery coffee)

 

[dannybex]

@Sherpa do you drink coffee? in addition to caffeine, it contains B2 and B5. I am getting a good energy boost from it.

Just a guess here, but I would think that heating or especially boiling the water would destroy any b vitamins that may be present.

I haven't had coffee in probably 20 years. The last few times I tried, if I had it after 2pm I'd be up until 3am in the morning.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Just a guess here, but I would think that heating or especially boiling the water would destroy any b vitamins that may be present.

From nutriondata.self.com:

Coffee, brewed from grounds, prepared with tap water
(of course I don't use tap water)

Nutrient / Amounts Per Selected Serving / %DV
Vitamin K 0.2mcg 0%
Thiamin 0.0mg 2%
Riboflavin 0.2mg 11%
Niacin 0.5mg 2%
Vitamin B6 0.0mg 0%
Folate 4.7mcg 1%
Vitamin B12 0.0mcg 0%
Pantothenic Acid 0.6mg 6%
Choline 6.2mg

Plus a lot of Mg, K, Cu, Mn (I guess SOD likes it?)

 

[Gondwanaland]

The last few times I tried, if I had it after 2pm I'd be up until 3am in the morning.

I have been sleeping better, but the mucosa inside my mouth is all swollen and the skin in my lips got thinner

 

[picante]

(not American watery coffee)

It's amazing how diluted things like coffee & beer are here in the states. They're improving the profit margin, I guess.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Is it possible that coffee is kickstarting methylation and that further in the day I get potassium deficiency? This morning wehn my energy took a dive I took a fraction of an electrolyte capsule and felt better.

 

[dannybex]

Is it possible that coffee is kickstarting methylation and that further in the day I get potassium deficiency? This morning wehn my energy took a dive I took a fraction of an electrolyte capsule and felt better.

Not sure, but coffee is a diuretic, and diuretics can deplete minerals. Here's one study, no doubt there are more:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531784801323

 

[aaron_c]

Sunbathing but no tan!

This is a new result of the B2/Manganese supplementation (8-9 weeks on).
For the last two months I have been swimming and sunbathing every other day (at least 40 mns in the sun, which is very bright and hot at the moment - 35°C all this last week). But my skin stays the same colour! Vaguely apricot-gold. With no defined delineations at the edges of the swimming suit.

I wonder if this is not a sign of my body manufacturing more glutathione?

I know glutathione pills are all the craze in Japan, and are supposed to stop you getting darker in the sun.
For example :
http://herroyalbleakness.blogspot.gr/2010/08/glutathione-war-tathion307-vs-ph338.html
http://www.superwhiteningpills.net/

Is the same thing happening to you too?

Be well!
Asklipia

I was reading over the linus pauling foundation page on copper, and found that "The cuproenzyme, tyrosinase, is required for the formation of the pigment melanin." The glutathione explanation could be valid--Rich Van K seemed to like it, and he knew more than I currently do. But for whatever it is worth, it also seems possible to me that the manganese interfered with tyrosinase. (I don't understand the relationship between manganese and copper all that well...only that increases in manganese consumption can decrease copper activity or absorption or transport.)

Of course, one might imagine other copper-deficiency issues would occur alongside this...and I don't get the impression that things were getting anything other than better for you.

 

[Violeta]

Is it possible that coffee is kickstarting methylation and that further in the day I get potassium deficiency? This morning wehn my energy took a dive I took a fraction of an electrolyte capsule and felt better.

I don't know, Gondwanaland if you theory is correct or not, but I have read that coffee inhibits potassium absorption into the cell.

 

[hixxy]

@Sherpa What symptoms do you consider to be specific to SOD deficiency?

 

[ahmo]

Just a note on B2. I've been so happy using FMN form of B2 for some months. I'm now using it transdermally, and this has allowed me to reduce dosage by half. I'm using 1/4 tab FMN, twice a day. I crush it into a blob of body lotion, then strip onto my arm. I started out by smearing it on my body, but that was a horrible mess. This has been excellent. AFAIK, FMN = r5p, and when I run out of the tablets, I'll be purchasing r5p capsules, to do the same.

 

[Aerose91]

I have had interesting moments with b2 in the past but only when taking very high dose injectable. When i had just adrenal fatigue it would usually give me better energy and a more positive mindset. Now, since ME, i have only had that positive reaction once or twice, 98% of the time with injectable, and 100% of the time with oral there is no difference.

Would love to know what was different those particular days

 

[stridor]

@Aerose91
As you likely know, any change with B12 means that you need it. Injectable gives you many, many times the dose of oral. Quantity counts.

My B12 levels were always high and this through me off for a long time. My main Dr still doesn't agree with my taking B12 but the results speak for themselves. I have some transport issues and one thing that contributed to my high B12 levels was that I couldn't get it into cells to use it efficiently.

Injectable allows me to flood my body (and brain) with B12 and it enters cells passively instead of relying on active transport. 2 needles a day is approximately equal to 2 years worth. This is a small fraction of what Freddd found he needed. Any attempts to decrease will give me symptoms. My levels exceed what local labs can measure now.

The body needs, what the body needs. The benefit to risk profile of what I do is quite favourable.