Any reason to believe childhood vaccines or other vaccines could contribute ME/CFS developing?

[ChookityPop]

Anyone have thoughts or sources on the possibility that childhood vaccines (or other vaccines) could be contributing to developing ME/CFS, autoimmune diseases etc later in life?

Apparently vaccines are one of the potential triggers for autoimmune diseases, and I guess its impossible to say if childhood vaccines contributes to diseases which manifests later on and not acutely.

Sometimes I wonder if I would have gotten ill if I grew up with the Hadza tribe in Tanzania which lives like we did as hunter gatherers free of all potential triggers we are surrounded by in the modern world.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

In my era, there were few vaccines. My daughter was not vaccinated very much, and probably got 5 vaccinations total, if that.

Now they mandate 72 vaccinations at least, before age of 5. Since we don't know the cause of most of these immune system type problems, its a huge risk factor and I really worry about it.

 

[Hip]

When I have chatted to patients with vaccine-triggered ME/CFS, the remarkable thing I've noticed is how quickly the onset of ME/CFS appears after vaccination, with full-blown ME/CFS symptoms hitting within days. Vaccine-triggered ME/CFS thus seem to be one of the fastest ME/CFS onsets you can get.

From that observation, it gives me the impression that when vaccines do trigger ME/CFS, it's an immediate effect. Whereas with infectious triggers, you tend to get both rapid onsets (appearing within days) or gradual onsets (slowly appearing over several months).

Of course you cannot exclude the possibly that vaccination years ago might had set up some adverse conditions in the body or immune system that increase the risk of developing ME/CFS; but I've not seen any studies finding an association between childhood vaccinations and the later development of ME/CFS.

By contrast, one study found a link between long courses of antibiotics as a child and the later later development of ME/CFS and IBS. The theory is that heavy antibiotic use in childhood may set up a biofilm dysbiosis in the gut, which is then a risk factor for developing ME/CFS later in life (from a viral infection, etc).

 

[Hip]

Though I should add that there is a theory that the introduction of the poliovirus vaccine may have lead to many of the cases of ME/CFS we see today.

It's not thought that poliovirus vaccine directly causes ME/CFS, but that the introduction of this vaccine eradicated the natural poliovirus that most children previously experienced — a natural infection which trained the T-cells of the immune system to fight enteroviruses (since poliovirus is an enterovirus).

Infection with poliovirus would have provided a natural vaccination against other enteroviruses, including coxsackievirus B and echovirus which are some of the main viruses linked to ME/CFS. But when we prevented poliovirus infection via the vaccination, we lost that natural protection.

Of course, the poliovirus vaccine saved many lives, and prevented children from becoming crippled by polio. But it may have had unforeseen consequences.

More info on this poliovirus vaccine theory of ME/CFS:
Did the introduction of the polio vaccine cause the massive rise in ME/CFS incidence in the 1980s?

 

[Vladimir]

No.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I wish I had a read on exactly what vaccines I got at what ages so I can go around cross referencing experiences but I don't seem to have a way to find out. Though if I could go back in time and stop myself from getting them I'd buy a time machine in a hot minute. I know I haven't gotten any in my teens and forward though for a fact.

 

[hapl808]

It's not thought that poliovirus vaccine directly causes ME/CFS, but that the introduction of this vaccine eradicated the natural poliovirus that most children previously experienced — a natural infection which trained the T-cells of the immune system to fight enteroviruses (since poliovirus is an enterovirus).

Hard to say, since they believe that less than 1% of polio cases resulted in paralytic polio, but 25%-40% resulted in Post Polio Syndrome over 15 years later. I feel like PPS is very amorphous like Long Covid and ME/CFS.

When I have chatted to patients with vaccine-triggered ME/CFS, the remarkable thing I've noticed is how quickly the onset of ME/CFS appears after vaccination, with full-blown ME/CFS symptoms hitting within days. Vaccine-triggered ME/CFS thus seem to be one of the fastest ME/CFS onsets you can get.

I'd had a few issues with very minor ME/CFS symptoms probably since I was a child. But more that when I got tired it took me longer to recover, some things tired me out more than they should, etc. Nothing major.

Then I got some vaccinations before a trip to SE Asia. I don't know what triggered it (never occurred to me until very recently that vaccines could be related). But exactly seven days after the vaccines while traveling, I got extremely ill - vomiting, diarrhea, etc. What was weird, is that it didn't really get better. My stomach was horrible - really for the rest of my life. My gym workouts went from 1.5 hours down to 45 minutes and then 20 minutes and then stopped. I became very easily injured - connective tissue problems, etc.

I have no way to know if it was the vaccine or some pathogen in SE Asia. I was very careful about what I ate since I had been in South America before, but obviously improper food handling or other things could still cause it. The vaccine side effects that most describe my condition is one of the three I got before going - the Hep B vaccine has been associated with neurological MS-like symptoms. Which is exactly what I have. I struggled through for years, eventually even trying to exercise again. Then I had another decline and lost the ability to walk almost a decade ago.

The vaccines I got before going - Hep B, Typhoid, Polio booster. Looking at them, I believe the Hep B used an aluminum adjuvant that might be connected to my symptoms.

Unfortunately, not sure all that means anything because I've been unable to treat it effectively.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

By contrast, one study found a link between long courses of antibiotics as a child and the later later development of ME/CFS and IBS.

I was constantly getting strep throat but blew entirely getting my parents to explain if I got alot of antibiotics or not. I actually think my parents got fed up taking me to doctors and I wasn't given alot of that. As I tend to remember alot of details. I remember the phenobarbital at 7. The allergy shots at one.

 

[Hip]

Hard to say, since they believe that less than 1% of polio cases resulted in paralytic polio, but 25%-40% resulted in Post Polio Syndrome over 15 years later. I feel like PPS is very amorphous like Long Covid and ME/CFS.

Yes that's true, the poliovirus vaccination campaign would have eliminated post-polio syndrome also, which is another advantage.

But the theory is that poliovirus vaccination allowed other viruses like coxsackievirus B to muscle in.

Coxsackievirus B is not just linked to ME/CFS, but also type 1 diabetes, sudden heart attacks in the healthy, heart diseases like dilated cardiomyopathy and heart valve disease, and several other illnesses.

So potentially all these diseases might have become more prevalent since the introduction of poliovirus vaccination, due to coxsackievirus B muscling in.


There was an interesting study comparing type 1 diabetes prevalence in Finland vs its neighbour Estonia. There is 3 times less T1D in Estonia compared to Finland, and the suspected reason is that Estonia uses the live poliovirus vaccine, whereas Finland uses the dead inactivated poliovirus vaccine.

The live vaccine is more like natural infection, so trains T-cells more. This T-cell training would then protect against coxsackievirus B, which in turn will protect against T1D.


Live vaccines also have been demonstrated to greatly reduce all cause mortality, so they have health benefits well beyond the pathogen that they target.

Just why live vaccines have these overall beneficial effects on health is not known.

 

[Hufsamor]

Of course, the poliovirus vaccine saved many lives, and prevented children from becoming crippled by polio. But it may have had unforeseen consequences.

My mother had polio as a child, and suffered post polio all of her adult life.
It reminded a lot of me/cfs.
Knowing what I know, with the adult people in my youth who suffered from post polio - with the terrible exhaustion and maybe a stiff back or a limp in addition- I would have chosen the vaccine.

It seems to be like this:
If a disease can give you me/cfs, the vaccine might give you me/cfs.
But if you don’t vaccinate anyone, more people will develop me/cfs, than if you do vaccine them.

 

[Hufsamor]

There was an interesting study comparing type 1 diabetes prevalence in Finland vs its neighbour Estonia. There is 3 times less T1D in Estonia compared to Finland, and the suspected reason is that Estonia uses the live poliovirus vaccine, whereas Finland used the dead inactivated poliovirus vaccine.

Interesting

 

[Hip]

If a disease can give you me/cfs, the vaccine might give you me/cfs.

Certainly I don't doubt that vaccines can trigger ME/CFS; but I question whether or not it is the specific pathogen within a vaccine which is responsible for triggering ME/CFS.

If you look at Dr Charles Shepard's survey on vaccines which are reported by patients to trigger ME/CFS, it includes pathogens which are not normally linked to ME/CFS, such as hepatitis B, tetanus, measles, mumps and rubella, etc.

Hepatitis B virus vaccine is by far the most common vaccine cause of ME/CFS; but I don't think patients would class themselves as having ME/CFS caused by hepatitis B virus.

You see this with so-called long COVID which follows a COVID vaccination: people who are hit with ME/CFS after a COVID vaccination call their illness long COVID; but is there any actual connection to COVID, or is it just that many vaccines can trigger ME/CFS, and the vaccine just happened to be a COVID vaccine?

After all, when people develop ME/CFS after a hepatitis B virus vaccine, they do not call their illness "long hep B".

 

[hapl808]

Hepatitis B virus vaccine is by far the most common vaccine cause of ME/CFS; but I don't think patients would class themselves as having ME/CFS cause by hepatitis B virus.

I almost wish I never found this out, because it makes me think it was all avoidable. I got the vaccine right before traveling, so likely not enough time to have any effect. I was low risk other than traveling to an endemic region. I really didn't need it, and it basically destroyed my entire life.

Live vaccines also have been demonstrated to greatly reduce all cause mortality, so they have health benefits well beyond the pathogen that they target.

I wish this were studied more, but the few people who bring it up are somehow painted as being anti-vaccine, which is bizarre.

 

[Bluebluesky]

You see this with so-called long COVID which follows a COVID vaccination: people who are hit with ME/CFS after a COVID vaccination call their illness long COVID; but is there any actual connection to COVID, or is it just that many vaccines can trigger ME/CFS, and the vaccine just happened to be a COVID vaccine?

I'm one of those who have what I would call vaccine induced long covid.

Before I say more, I should also say that I think statistics speak loud and clear about the life-saving properties of vaccines. And I want those lives to be saved.

@Hip you seem to know a lot about this. What do you think or know about the theory that it is the spike protein that triggers the long covid and that it may also be the spike protein in the mRNA vaccine that triggers the vaccine reaction - hence they are similar? It sounds very reasonable to me. To me it looks a lot like I've got long COVID. But I don't know a lot about it....

As you describe, it was there when the fever stopped. I walked 5 km to get the vaccine, but when the fever stopped I could hardly crawl to the bathroom. And a lot of my neurological problems were set back to where they were before I started to take vitamin b12 18 months earlier. And so I got diagnosed with ME.

For those who are not aware that vaccine induced long covid exists, you might want to read this article from the Science Magazine. https://www.science.org/content/art...and-long-covid-illness-starts-gain-acceptance

 

[Hip]

@Hip you seem to know a lot about this. What do you think or know about the theory that it is the spike protein that triggers the long covid and that it may also be the spike protein in the mRNA vaccine that triggers the vaccine reaction - hence they are similar? It sounds very reasonable to me. To me it looks a lot like I've got long COVID. But I don't know a lot about it....

I don't know much about it. Having caught COVID myself two years ago, my ME/CFS got worse, and now I don't have the ability to focus on reading research in the way I used to.

It's not clear to me whether even LC ME/CFS from a COVID infection involves spike protein. Though I have not been following the research closely. The spike protein does have some toxic effects, and presumably might be constantly synthesised by any SARS-CoV-2 virus present in the body of LC patients; so it could be playing a contributory role in COVID infection-triggered LC.

But you don't need spike protein to have ME/CFS, as all the other viruses (and vaccines) that are linked to ME/CFS do not contain spike protein.

In the case of COVID vaccine-triggered ME/CFS, I have not followed the research, but I would doubt any spike protein remains, as the body would clear it out.


I think if there were some distinguishing symptom that is found only long COVID ME/CFS, but is not found in ME/CFS from other viruses, and if that same symptom were present in the ME/CFS illness that can follow a COVID vaccination, then you might say that there is a connection between LC ME/CFS from the virus and from the vaccine.