Am I going down a functional doctor rabbit hole?

[wabi-sabi]

I feel so ill equipped most days. I hope I’m making good decisions for him.

You're doing the best you can. We all feel for you and wish we could help more.

If anything I say is unhelpful right now, please ignore that too. I love ferreting out info and papers, but I know that can get tiresome when you really need emotional support. If there's info I can genuinely help you find I'm happy to do that.

@lenora is right. You need to be as good to yourself as you can be. I've had times too when I had to put down the finding healthcare fight and just be sick. Then there are other times when you have the energy again.

You are doing the best you can for your son when medical science just hasn't caught up to his needs.

 

[Hope_eternal]

Here's an interesting blurb on fungi and Crohn's. https://asm.org/articles/2021/july/broadening-the-microbiome-fungi-in-inflammatory-bo
My understanding of the article:

1) IBD is a complex illness. There are up to 240 different genes and multiple environmental risk factors. Scientists haven't hashed it all out yet, but seems to be miscommunication between immune system and microbiome.

2) Fungi are a relatively difficult part of the microbiome to study compared to bacteria. Our knowledge of them is much too small. Some types are helpful and some harmful. Debaryomyces hansenii is an especially bad guy! This shows up especially in meat and cheese. Large amounts of meat in diet are associated with Crohn's relapses.

And here's another that mentions candida specifically: https://news.weill.cornell.edu/news/2021/11/antibodies-help-keep-harmful-forms-of-gut-fungi-in-check

1) Some (not all!) patients with Crohn's have C. albicans in gut and antibodies to yeast in blood. These antibodies don't seem to be in the gut where they belong. Healthy people sometimes have C. albicans in their guts too.

2) Scientists propose giving antifungal antibodies (no mention of anti fungal drugs) to patients with this particular problem.


Here I am editorializing again, but it strikes me as very unlikely that a patient with Crohns' would have the lab results your doc states, namely yeast in blood and urine but not stool. The Crohn's patients that do have candida growths have them in the GI (or intrabdominally), not urine and blood (as far as I can tell after googling for half an hour). Yeast infections often shows up in the mouth for Crohn's people. You know lots more about Crohn's than I do.

Urine yeast infections are far more common in women than men, like other bladder infections. Men get these types of infections after using a catheter or having surgery to the area. Yes, they can happen with immune compromise, so if your son it that immune compromised with the Crohn's your Crohn's doc would know and be involved in treatment? I think?

Oh gosh thank you for researching this and sharing the information! It gives me plenty to think about. I’m definitely going to hold off on any harsh treatments for now. I’m very overwhelmed and need to step back and sort it all out slowly and methodically.. He’s in such a vulnerable spot. I’m
Not making any rash decisions. The information you sent it very helpful. Thank you doing that research! That’s so kind 🙏

 

[wabi-sabi]

Thank you doing that research!

This is one of my favorite things! If there's any topics you want, I am happy to inundate you with papers.

Hugs, and get some rest, Wabi.

 

[Hope_eternal]

You're doing the best you can. We all feel for you and wish we could help more.

If anything I say is unhelpful right now, please ignore that too. I love ferreting out info and papers, but I know that can get tiresome when you really need emotional support. If there's info I can genuinely help you find I'm happy to do that.

@lenora is right. You need to be as good to yourself as you can be. I've had times too when I had to put down the finding healthcare fight and just be sick. Then there are other times when you have the energy again.

You are doing the best you can for your son when medical science just hasn't caught up to his needs.

Thank you 😭😭😭🙏🙏🙏 Well that made the flood gates open. Geesh that pain is so raw. Doesn’t take much to set off my waterworks. I appreciate your offer for research and I’ll take you up on that. I’ve been searching for any kind of report on CFS and skyrizi. What happens to a person that is very low baseline energy (23 1/2 hrs in bed) on that medication? I haven’t had any luck finding anything about it. So if you have time and you feel up to only, that would be so very helpful. Thank you.

 

[wabi-sabi]

I’ve been searching for any kind of report on CFS and skyrizi.

You got it!

 

[Hope_eternal]

You got it!

❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏 I appreciate this so much!

 

[wabi-sabi]

Hi @Hope_eternal

I am starting the search. This will have to be in small installments, so here are some preliminary tidbits. I'm starting the search in PubMed, since that's the most accessible and user friendly database. Other databases you would want to talk to your reference librarian about. That can be either at your town library or if you are lucky enough to live close to a state university system, an academic library.

Results so far:

1) searching "skyrizi" in PubMed gives 452 hits. I didn't read all of these!

2) searching "skyrizi" and "Crohn's" gives 70 hits. I didn't read all those either!

3) searching "skyrizi" and "IBD" gives 25 hits. Still didn't read all these...

4) searching "skyrizi and "fatigue" gives 6 hits. I will look these over.

5) searching "skyrizi" and "ME/CFS" gives no hits.

My conclusions:

You can't find any info on skyrizi and ME/CFS because this research hasn't been done. However, there's lots of good info on skyrizi and Crohn's that your doc can discuss and answer your questions about. Use him for this. He is the expect in that area, where I am not. I will look into what I can on the fatigue connection specifically.

Stay tuned:

1) I can find you info on connections between Crohn's and fatigue or Crohn's and ME/CFS. You can take that info to your Crohn's doc to discuss as well.

2) How to think over your options when there's less research than you would like.

 

[Hope_eternal]

Hi @Hope_eternal

I am starting the search. This will have to be in small installments, so here are some preliminary tidbits. I'm starting the search in PubMed, since that's the most accessible and user friendly database. Other databases you would want to talk to your reference librarian about. That can be either at your town library or if you are lucky enough to live close to a state university system, an academic library.

Results so far:

1) searching "skyrizi" in PubMed gives 452 hits. I didn't read all of these!

2) searching "skyrizi" and "Crohn's" gives 70 hits. I didn't read all those either!

3) searching "skyrizi" and "IBD" gives 25 hits. Still didn't read all these...

4) searching "skyrizi and "fatigue" gives 6 hits. I will look these over.

5) searching "skyrizi" and "ME/CFS" gives no hits.

My conclusions:

You can't find any info on skyrizi and ME/CFS because this research hasn't been done. However, there's lots of good info on skyrizi and Crohn's that your doc can discuss and answer your questions about. Use him for this. He is the expect in that area, where I am not. I will look into what I can on the fatigue connection specifically.

Stay tuned:

1) I can find you info on connections between Crohn's and fatigue or Crohn's and ME/CFS. You can take that info to your Crohn's doc to discuss as well.

2) How to think over your options when there's less research than you would like.

Wow 🤩 you are good! The only article I found was this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10455565/

What a great idea to try the college and local
Libraries! Thank you for the suggestion.

Thank you Wabi ❤️‍🩹🙏

 

[wabi-sabi]

The only article I found was this.

That's a good one! It's on the list.

 

[wabi-sabi]

Here's your first study. It was fun!

Sorry about the formatting. I wrote it in word so I could save it, but the formatting doesn't translate well here.


Tsai, SY., Chen, HJ., Lio, CF. et al. Increased risk of chronic fatigue syndrome in patients with inflammatory bowel disease: a population-based retrospective cohort study. J Transl Med 17, 55 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12967-019-1797-3



My Summary with editorial comments in italics:

• Both IBD and CFS cause profound fatigue. Bacterial translocation (meaning gut bacteria leaving the digestive tract and entering the bloodstream has been shown in at least one study of CFS and some studies in IBD. The authors wonder if this is an important similarity!
• These authors are still using the Fukuda criteria for CFS which dates to 1994 and is no longer used by experts in ME/CFS. They are out of date on understanding what CFS is, so we need to interpret their findings very carefully. Snarky aside: Why can’t medicine get with the program and stay up to date?! I haven’t looked at the study they cite for bacterial translocation and CFS, so I’m not sure how current this is, given their definition of CFS itself is out of date. I think I remember research on the from the Hansen lab, so let’s give the authors the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s correct.
• The authors combed through the records from the Taiwan National Health Insurance Administration database, looking for people over the age of 20 who were newly diagnosed with IBD (both Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis) between 2004 and 2006. They excluded people who started with a diagnosis of CFS. For each patient with IBD, they matched 4 people without IBD. Cancer, diabetes, depression, anxiety, kidney disease, and sleep disorders were counted as pre-existing conditions.

This method allows the authors to compare two groups, one with IBD and one without, to see which group develops more CFS. People who already had CFS were excluded from the study, because if they already have it, well they aren’t going to develop it during your study period. They are trying to follow IBD patients forward through time to see if they get CFS. It’s a big database, so gives comprehensive info.

• Statistics happened. I don’t know how to analyze the stats so I am assuming they did the math right.
• They found some interesting patterns. First, IBD patients had more anxiety, depression, sleep problems, and kidney disease than non-IBD patients. IBD patients are 52% female and have a mean age of 47 years. I rounded these figures. Following people out 8 years from diagnosis of IBD, people with IBD were more likely to also get CFS than those without IBD. Taking into account age and comorbidities (the other diseases listed above that people might have), people with IBD still have higher rates of CFS than those without. When they compared men and women, men with IBD had a higher rate of CFS than women with IBD. For people without IBD, women have a higher risk of CFS than men do. Rates of CFS after IBD increases with age, except for the 20-34 age group. When they broke down IBD into Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis, only the Crohn’s raised the CFS risk. This was some heavy duty public health math, so fingers crossed I have understood and explained it right!
• So what does it all mean? This is the first study that looks at this issue in a nationwide database. It’s very interesting that the mean age of IBD diagnosis was 47, and not the younger ages (20-30) you would expect. The authors repeat the part about gut translocation of bacteria as a possible explanation for CFS and IBD. However, this study didn’t look at how people get either IBD or CFS, but who is at risk. Meaning it can’t tell us about how without looking at other studies at the same time. You always have to look at multiple studies to get a complete picture of a disease.
• Then the authors mention there weren’t very many people with ulcerative colitis in the study anyway… so maybe that thing about Crohn’s makes you at risk for CFS but UC doesn’t isn’t really true and there just weren’t enough people to tell for sure. Sigh. But if there really was a higher risk of CFS in Crohn’s compared to UC that makes sense with the bacterial translocation hypothesis because Crohn’s has more areas of inflammation than UC does. Still a big maybe…
• 
  
• Some probiotics and a healthy diet benefits patients with biliary disease, so why not try them in IBD! Wait what?! When were probiotics ever mentioned or looked at in this study?! Exactly never! Wild guesses about treatments without data are so much fun!
• The study was strong in that it included such a large number of patients (except for UC!) and has all demographic and comorbidity data. However, since it looked at the insurance database, it couldn’t give info on laboratory results, disease severity of IBD or medication use. These are all infos you would want in a future study. However, the authors assume that the CFS diagnoses are not related to IBD medication fatigue, because they think that CFS fatigue must be unexplained. Argh! These people know nothing about CFS! If CFS fatigue is unexplained, why are you burbling on about bacterial translocation in both CFS and IBD?! I can’t take this level of ignorance! Oh, and the authors really think the diagnoses of CFS and IBD were correct in this study. Well, we all hope so too… If you don't know what CFS is, sure does make it hard to diagnose correctly.

My Conclusions:

• These authors clearly don’t have a robust understanding of CFS. They seem to like a bacterial translocation hypothesis, but this study can, at most, provide supporting evidence, but not direct evidence for that. It’s pretty weak there. If you want to know that specifically, well you have to test that as the Hansen lab is doing.
• Crohn’s patients seem to have higher rates of CFS than non-Crohn’s. The UC thing is such a mess, who knows? It’s weird their newly diagnosed IBD patients were older than average, so maybe they have a unique patient population here. Does this apply to people outside Taiwan or people diagnosed with Crohn’s at the typical age? Don’t know.
• Medication for Crohn’s that cause fatigue don’t cause CFS. Well duh. CFS is a disease, not a med side effect. However, I’m not sure how you deduced that from this study, since your data didn’t include patient medications or how people responded to them.
• The interesting finding we want to think about and investigate further is that men with Crohn’s had higher rates of CFS than women with Crohn’s. In general, ME/CFS affects more women than men, so the authors are on to an interesting data tidbit. We just can’t tell what that tidbit means from this study. Hopefully someone will pick up on this and research it more.
• In terms of bacterial translocation, we need to interpret this study in light of all the other studies. Someone with more braincells than me will have to do this.
• In general, I am disappointed with the quality of the conclusion from the data and the authors’ lack of knowledge of CFS. However, the data itself is interesting, if incomplete, as the authors note in ideas for further studies.

 

[dyllanmurphy]

Honestly many alternative doctors claim a high success rate. The one I saw was super expensive and specialized in infections. Unfortunately he saw infections everywhere in every case, major investment in that hypothesis, but I was skeptical as none of the lab tests backed up that theory. I ended up being correct as the answer was something else completely. Not saying he was a bad doctor, I'm sure many of them mean well, but ultimately the treatments made me worse off.

 

[nystew]

Great Scott, do not do this!

There is no evidence from the real doctors and scientists that study ME/CFS that any of us have a candida overgrowth. There's no evidence that anyone has a candida overgrowth, really. This is a red flag diagnosis that you are not seeing a legit doctor.

OK, maybe you don't want (and shouldn't take) medical advice from a random stranger on the internet.

For my experience, I have found an immunologist/allergist that is treating my MCAS. I am on four different meds for this and one supplement, which is actually helping! I was just thinking today about making a post about how much more hopeful I am feeling after my immunology appt today. He says I am improving as fast as a person can improve after being sick for so many years.

The functional person I saw told me to stop all of my allergy meds (which the allergist is having me take). That made me really sick. He also told me to eat clay, yes actual clay, to detox mold. I didn't do this since I have gastric emptying problems which I couldn't imagine would go well with eating clay. All in all, the functional advice made me sicker (and cost a bit of money).

The immunologist is the doctor that is actually making me better. Here is what the American Academy of Allergy and Immunology have to say about candida : https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(86)80073-2/pdf

My quack dx me from answering 5 questions and put me on Nystatin. I got worse. He gave me bs hydrogen peroxide drips with vitamins. Used a pendulum. I'm so pissed at myself. He has that damn book on his office. Dx with adrenal fatigue but no remedy for that. I feel so robbed.

 

[wabi-sabi]

I got worse.

So sorry to hear that. That's why I go on tirades the way I do.

 

[lenora]

We can all willly-nilly choose from the array of vitamins, supplements and herbs available to us. Just use a dart. Good for you for using your knowledge @nystew.

Very nice of you to help @wabi-sabi. I'm surprised at the beginning age of Crohn's also. Is it the diet do you think? People from Taiwan do eat lots of pickled foods....too bad they didn't mention diet. Yours, Lenora

 

[Hope_eternal]

Here's your first study. It was fun!

Sorry about the formatting. I wrote it in word so I could save it, but the formatting doesn't translate well here.


Tsai, SY., Chen, HJ., Lio, CF. et al. Increased risk of chronic fatigue syndrome in patients with inflammatory bowel disease: a population-based retrospective cohort study. J Transl Med 17, 55 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12967-019-1797-3



My Summary with editorial comments in italics:

• Both IBD and CFS cause profound fatigue. Bacterial translocation (meaning gut bacteria leaving the digestive tract and entering the bloodstream has been shown in at least one study of CFS and some studies in IBD. The authors wonder if this is an important similarity!
• 
  
• These authors are still using the Fukuda criteria for CFS which dates to 1994 and is no longer used by experts in ME/CFS. They are out of date on understanding what CFS is, so we need to interpret their findings very carefully. Snarky aside: Why can’t medicine get with the program and stay up to date?! I haven’t looked at the study they cite for bacterial translocation and CFS, so I’m not sure how current this is, given their definition of CFS itself is out of date. I think I remember research on the from the Hansen lab, so let’s give the authors the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s correct.
• The authors combed through the records from the Taiwan National Health Insurance Administration database, looking for people over the age of 20 who were newly diagnosed with IBD (both Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis) between 2004 and 2006. They excluded people who started with a diagnosis of CFS. For each patient with IBD, they matched 4 people without IBD. Cancer, diabetes, depression, anxiety, kidney disease, and sleep disorders were counted as pre-existing conditions.

This method allows the authors to compare two groups, one with IBD and one without, to see which group develops more CFS. People who already had CFS were excluded from the study, because if they already have it, well they aren’t going to develop it during your study period. They are trying to follow IBD patients forward through time to see if they get CFS. It’s a big database, so gives comprehensive info.

• Statistics happened. I don’t know how to analyze the stats so I am assuming they did the math right.
• They found some interesting patterns. First, IBD patients had more anxiety, depression, sleep problems, and kidney disease than non-IBD patients. IBD patients are 52% female and have a mean age of 47 years. I rounded these figures. Following people out 8 years from diagnosis of IBD, people with IBD were more likely to also get CFS than those without IBD. Taking into account age and comorbidities (the other diseases listed above that people might have), people with IBD still have higher rates of CFS than those without. When they compared men and women, men with IBD had a higher rate of CFS than women with IBD. For people without IBD, women have a higher risk of CFS than men do. Rates of CFS after IBD increases with age, except for the 20-34 age group. When they broke down IBD into Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis, only the Crohn’s raised the CFS risk. This was some heavy duty public health math, so fingers crossed I have understood and explained it right!
• So what does it all mean? This is the first study that looks at this issue in a nationwide database. It’s very interesting that the mean age of IBD diagnosis was 47, and not the younger ages (20-30) you would expect. The authors repeat the part about gut translocation of bacteria as a possible explanation for CFS and IBD. However, this study didn’t look at how people get either IBD or CFS, but who is at risk. Meaning it can’t tell us about how without looking at other studies at the same time. You always have to look at multiple studies to get a complete picture of a disease.
• Then the authors mention there weren’t very many people with ulcerative colitis in the study anyway… so maybe that thing about Crohn’s makes you at risk for CFS but UC doesn’t isn’t really true and there just weren’t enough people to tell for sure. Sigh. But if there really was a higher risk of CFS in Crohn’s compared to UC that makes sense with the bacterial translocation hypothesis because Crohn’s has more areas of inflammation than UC does. Still a big maybe…
• 
  
• Some probiotics and a healthy diet benefits patients with biliary disease, so why not try them in IBD! Wait what?! When were probiotics ever mentioned or looked at in this study?! Exactly never! Wild guesses about treatments without data are so much fun!
• 
  
• The study was strong in that it included such a large number of patients (except for UC!) and has all demographic and comorbidity data. However, since it looked at the insurance database, it couldn’t give info on laboratory results, disease severity of IBD or medication use. These are all infos you would want in a future study. However, the authors assume that the CFS diagnoses are not related to IBD medication fatigue, because they think that CFS fatigue must be unexplained. Argh! These people know nothing about CFS! If CFS fatigue is unexplained, why are you burbling on about bacterial translocation in both CFS and IBD?! I can’t take this level of ignorance! Oh, and the authors really think the diagnoses of CFS and IBD were correct in this study. Well, we all hope so too… If you don't know what CFS is, sure does make it hard to diagnose correctly.

My Conclusions:

• These authors clearly don’t have a robust understanding of CFS. They seem to like a bacterial translocation hypothesis, but this study can, at most, provide supporting evidence, but not direct evidence for that. It’s pretty weak there. If you want to know that specifically, well you have to test that as the Hansen lab is doing.
• Crohn’s patients seem to have higher rates of CFS than non-Crohn’s. The UC thing is such a mess, who knows? It’s weird their newly diagnosed IBD patients were older than average, so maybe they have a unique patient population here. Does this apply to people outside Taiwan or people diagnosed with Crohn’s at the typical age? Don’t know.
• Medication for Crohn’s that cause fatigue don’t cause CFS. Well duh. CFS is a disease, not a med side effect. However, I’m not sure how you deduced that from this study, since your data didn’t include patient medications or how people responded to them.
• The interesting finding we want to think about and investigate further is that men with Crohn’s had higher rates of CFS than women with Crohn’s. In general, ME/CFS affects more women than men, so the authors are on to an interesting data tidbit. We just can’t tell what that tidbit means from this study. Hopefully someone will pick up on this and research it more.
• In terms of bacterial translocation, we need to interpret this study in light of all the other studies. Someone with more braincells than me will have to do this.
• In general, I am disappointed with the quality of the conclusion from the data and the authors’ lack of knowledge of CFS. However, the data itself is interesting, if incomplete, as the authors note in ideas for further studies.

Goodness Wabi, A++++ and all the extra credit points!! 😅❤️ I hope that didn’t take too much out of you. I sincerely appreciate all the bullet pointed summaries of the study and your conclusions. It is very interesting that men with Crohns have higher rates of CFS according to their study or was it just a fluke that those particular men in the study just happened to contract it or did it have something to do with the type of medication they are on?
Not all Crohn’s patients have to be on biologic or immuno suppressant drugs, so I’m wondering if having to be on them makes them more susceptible. Or less susceptible. I wonder if a follow-up study was done in the bacterial component of their findings since this study was a little under 20 yrs ago. At any rate, I appreciate you being so thorough and providing this for me. What’s interesting is none of his Crohn’s specialist ever suggested he might have CFS. If it’s known that CFS is more common, especially in male crohn patients I think this is something specialist should be aware of because we were sent on a very emotionally taxing for me and physically taxing for my son wild goose chase of doctors. They clearly could’ve suggested he may have CFS in the very beginning, when this first started. Anyway, it’s Neither here, nor there now I suppose. Again, I appreciate this so very much. You are a fantastic researcher!

 

[Hope_eternal]

My quack dx me from answering 5 questions and put me on Nystatin. I got worse. He gave me bs hydrogen peroxide drips with vitamins. Used a pendulum. I'm so pissed at myself. He has that damn book on his office. Dx with adrenal fatigue but no remedy for that. I feel so robbed.

I’m sorry to hear this. Ug it’s so frightening to not know where to turn. What book are you referring to? Be gentle with yourself it’s easy to get caught up in believing their treatments will help you. They are very convincing and they may possibly help some people. Unfortunately they don’t help all people and that’s what they need to be honest about so it’s really not your fault you’re only trying to do the loving thing and help yourself heal. I was diagnosed with adrenal fatigue about eight years ago, and it was absolutely horrid, I feel for you. I tried all the supplements and I would get the paradoxal reactions, so I wasn’t able to take any supplements. I’m still scarred from all the scary symptoms I got from taking them that to this day I can’t take any meds or supplements! Serious PTSD.. At any rate, after doing quite a bit of research, I found a book by Christine Northrup, spoke about getting more amino acids through eating meat and resting more and avoiding stress to heal adrenal fatigue, so I gave up seeing doctors and decided I was going to eat more meat, rest every chance I could get, do purposeful relaxation twice daily. And for some reason I noticed eating clementines/oranges made me feel so much better so incorporated eating those frequently. I started seeing improvements week by week.. I did heal but I still need to be very careful to not overdo things to this day. I’m not a doctor, but those are the things that helped me during my adrenal fatigue period. Wishing you much health and recovery ❤️‍🩹

 

[Hope_eternal]

Honestly many alternative doctors claim a high success rate. The one I saw was super expensive and specialized in infections. Unfortunately he saw infections everywhere in every case, major investment in that hypothesis, but I was skeptical as none of the lab tests backed up that theory. I ended up being correct as the answer was something else completely. Not saying he was a bad doctor, I'm sure many of them mean well, but ultimately the treatments made me worse off.

I’m sorry to hear the treatments made you worse off. Were you able to find treatments that eventually helped? Or are you still suffering from the effects of those treatments that made you worse? It’s a very difficult place to be, navigating an illness that hasn’t been thoroughly and properly researched all these years. I’m so scared to try anything on my son after hearing about the unfortunate results a lot of ME patients go through.

 

[Slushiefan]

Hello Hope_eternal. Whoever you are pulling for is truly blessed to have you fighting for them. Your posts show so much care!

I didn't read through everything you posted, but my overall suggestion is that you focus on improving the IBD w/ eg biologics first, and kind of slow walk the CFS treatments. You may accidentally help some of the CFS symptoms while treating the IBD.

At the risk of sounding overly negative, I also recommend that if the first couple of visits w/ a CFS specialist, naturopath, etc don't bear good fruit, then you should temper expectations of further improvement through them. EG don't spend large sums of money.

The reason I say not more than a couple visits is because CFS understanding is very limited, and there are only a few good treatments. The CFS specialist or naturopath will have already thrown their best treatments at the patient immediately, and after those things move to rapidly diminishing returns.

I spent a few years with a naturopath, and though he never cheated me, his Standard Process supplements just didn't make any difference. Each month I would see him I would tell him that I had no improvement, and each time his answer was to give it another month. This went on for 4 months.

 

[Violeta]

@Hope_eternal, there's a very good group for candida on facebook, if you're interested. The person who runs it also interfaces on a group for mitochondria nutrients which is based on a book about thiamine by Dr. Lonsdale.

I saw someone mention getting worse on nystatin, and that's very common, but there are a lot of natural remedies that don't have bad side effects. Hopefully your doctor, or even yourself, will be able to find something that doesn't make the problem worse.

Take care, don't give up.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

of vitamins, supplements and herbs available to us. Just use a dart

thats why chinese traditional medicine is so unique. It's a system, deployed over a very long period of time.

Also, important detail, my herbalist never says: I will cure you.