Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Transdermal B12 oils

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by garyfritz, Oct 14, 2014.

  1. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Yes, doing well. My last methyl oil had a problem in shipping and arrived with leaked oil in the package. The bottle also leaks when you pump a dose. I told Greg and he immediately said he'd send out a replacement.

    The oil is also bright red. It soaks into the skin quickly so it's not too messy. Applying it in low light is probably a good idea.

    Greg told me that it took some experimentation to find an oil / emulsifier blend that worked well. It's apparently not just a matter of dumping some B12 into a bottle of cooking oil. :D Hopefully your compounded cream will work well!

    Good luck to you and your daughter!
     
  2. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    My experience has been that the B12 oil pumps could use some improvement in general. I've taken to getting in the shower to apply it after having it spatter one too many times on bedding, walls etc. I'm on my third bottle and they have all done this especially towards the end.
     
  3. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Yeah, they do spatter towards the end of the bottle. I curve my fingers around the pump head and that contains it pretty well. I still do it over the sink so it's easy to clean.
     
  4. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Someone else got back to me and said they're in the midst of two studies with children and adults. No results yet but at least it indicates they're serious about proving it works.
     
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  5. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Update on my experiences with www.amazon.com/Vita-Sciences-Maxasorb-Vitamin-Methylcobalamin/dp/B00I2THMAW

    One squirt (supposed to be 320mch) feels to my body like 1-2 mcg (not mg) sublingual, in terms of energy level and insomnia. So, definitely not absorbing super-efficiently!

    I decided to continue with it, though, because I have it, and just in case I am secretly absorbing more than I think. I've been using it for about a week, now.

    It does not spatter. It's a lotion, like hand cream. I put it on under my clothing, and in dim light.

    I found it a little hard to adjust the dosage, at first, because it does not take effect as quickly or abruptly as a sublingual. So it was hard to tell if I needed more. But I eventually settled on one squirt as being a bit high, but close enough to right. I occasionally go back to my sublingual for a day when I feel it has built up too much (like, after a night of being too wakeful).

    It's very convenient, compared to the dropper bottle of dissolved specks of sublingual pills that I use for my microdoses. But, of course, more expensive.

    Based on my experience, I would not recommend this brand for people who need megadoses. Y'all would have to bathe in the stuff. Or get a massage with it :). (I am now envisioning a specialised spa for us folks!)
     
  6. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Has anyone else used both the adenosyl/methyl oil AND the pure-methyl oil from B12oils.com?

    I've gone through a couple of bottles of each. I'm certain all of them were deep blood-red in color. Last week I got a methyl bottle that leaked, and Greg immediately sent a replacement. I was out of methyl so I used the leaking bottle until the replacement arrived, and I was surprised that it was a more-transparent pink color. I assumed the bottle had leaked air and the oil had gone bad or something -- but the replacement bottle is also pink, and Greg says yes, the methyl is supposed to be pink. !?

    What have others seen?

    When I was getting full relief from my symptoms, I was taking 1/day ad/me and 2/day methyl. All were blood-red. When I had only the leaking pink methyl, I took 2/day red ad/me and 2/day pink methyl. In theory that was the same as I had taken before but with an extra ad/me -- but it didn't fully control the symptoms.

    I just got the replacement methyl a few days ago, and I behaved rather badly yesterday at Thanksgiving, so I don't have a good test of the new oil yet. If I don't get good relief with 1/day ad/me and 2/day pink methyl, I may try 3/day ad/me. Because that would give me 3/day red doses. It seems very unlikely that Greg's company could have mislabeled those bottles, but... ???

    This is especially confusing because I'm very certain methyl B12 is critical for me. I've mostly controlled my symptoms for over a year with only methyl B12. So it made perfect sense to me that I required a lot of methyl oil. But maybe (if we assume I somehow got mislabeled methyl bottles) I also have a huge need for adenosyl B12, and large amounts of the ad/me blend was just what I needed?
     
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  7. South

    South Senior Member

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    Making our own penetration enhancers to mix with B12 = homemade transdermal B12?

    To skip all of my boring details, scroll down to the "Possible Recipe" at bottom of this post.

    I googled looking for agents the pharmaceutical industry mixes with drugs to allow/increase the deliver of the drugs through the skin. It seems that these agents are called "penetration enhancers" (not emulsifiers, which are the things that make the drug blend evenly into an oil or water for long term storage; see definition of microemulsion below)

    I'm interested in trying this on my own. One source, below, listed several easy to find things as well-known penetration enhancers (one of them is lavender oil - which, now that I think of it, does a good job dissolving the finish on wood furniture - so it's stronger than one would think).

    Problem is, I'm not the best judge as to the effectiveness, because I'm not consistently responsive to B12. The sublingual enzymatic therapy tablet that I use in my mouth doesn't usually give me any little energy boost, even if I take a few days off of it and then restart. I'm doing it anyway, "just in case" it's doing something.

    So if anyone else wants to try making a homemade transdermal mix, it would be great to hear how it goes. here is a link; scroll down to the "abstract" section on it to see the list of penetration enhancers.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517394903468

    They use the word "microemulsion" - the wikipedia definition of microemulsion states "In contrast to ordinary emulsions, microemulsions form upon simple mixing of the components and do not require the high shear conditions generally used in the formation of ordinary emulsions.:", and it states that microemulsions are mixtures of oil, water, and surfectant. Surfectants (sp?) in skin care products are simple soaps or detergents.

    The page I linked talks about having some alcohol in the mix, which increased the delivery of the drug into the skin.

    Possible Recipe:
    methylB12 from inside a capsule of some reliable brand
    vodka
    water
    oil, like some mild cooking oil
    lavender oil (don't scoff, see above study reference, and it's strong enough to disolve furniture finish)
    a drop or so of liquid soap

    I would shake it well each time before using it, and keep it in a dark container.

    A lot of work maybe, but if it works, this is better for me than placing periodic orders from some far-off company. I'd like to find a method that doesn't involve holding something in my mouth anymore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
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  8. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Has anyone tried using DMSO?

    (Sorry if this had already been mentioned. I've missed some of this thread.)
     
  9. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    According to @Hip in this thread, water or alcohol solutions work just as well as DMSO.
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, see this post for more details.
     
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  11. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I wonder if they ever did any of those follow up studies to find out if those results were transferable to humans?
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Not sure about human studies, but I was surprised that DMSO was no better than water or ethanol in drawing B12 through the skin and into the body. Normally DMSO is far better than water or ethanol for this purpose.
     
    Ema likes this.
  13. Idie

    Idie

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    So, I have been trying the compounded B12 from my pharmacy. The problem that I have is that my symptoms had gotten much worse because my injections were not always consistent. Point is that I was starting the trial at a time when I was low on B-12 and I was bascially digging out of a hole. I have had extensive discussions with my Pharm D. and she is most open about the products. There are two and both are proprietary to the Compounding Pharmacy Association. One is more "soluable" than the other other at a higher mg per mil. I have both to try. Gregg from B12 oils told me that he believes that soluability is the key to getting the B12 through the skin. Back to the products that I am trying. The more soluable one at 12.5 mg per ml which is the most soluable product and 25 mg per mil at a less soluable level. I have been doing it for a week (12.5 mg per mil more soluable). I believe there is some affect but I needed to increase my B12 quickly because of the return of symptoms so I used the cream and the sublinguals which I know affects my trial.

    Symptoms are more under control now so I'm going to go solo with the cream-----I will report back.

    My daughter is doing the trial with the B-12 oils-----only been at it for a week so far so good. She needs more than one dose per day.

    I am hopeful that we are beginning to see the compounded pharmacies trying to use the transdermals to deliver Methylcobalamin B12 through the skin slowly throughout the day which is better than an injection...if it works.
     
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  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My first experience with Greg's B12 Transdermal Oil, as used by @garyfritz: I'd taken my normal 10mg sublingual Country Life in the AM, along w/ 1/3 of my folate, as usual. When I received the oil, I used it in place of my 10mg CL dose. In the PM, I took the remaining 1/3 of my daily folate. Shortly after, I had the appearance of one of my mast cell/folate deficiency symptoms: blood blister on tongue. I asked body if this was folate deficiency, got a +. So I took .5mg folate, and the blister subsided immediately (!). A few hours later it was again inflating, so I took another .25mg folate, again it subsided.

    So it seems the oil was very effective, and, combined with part of my usual sublingual dose, pushed me into a folate imbalance. Starting the day now w/ 1 pump, will see how this holds me through the day.
     
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  16. skwag

    skwag Senior Member

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    Interesting results @ahmo . I wonder if you have any thoughts on why it is these small transdermal doses seem more effective. Your morning pump is delivering .75mg at 80% absorption for a total of .6mg absorbed. On the other hand the County Life should be delivering much more. 10mg at 10% absorption for a total of 1mg absorbed. All these are estimates of course, but I would not expect such drastic differences.

    I see a couple options. First, maybe we have been overestimating sublingual absorbtion. @aturtles suggested this in her report on her trials with vaporizing B12. Another possibility is that the County Life has lost some effectiveness.

    In any case, thanks for the report and keep us posted.
     
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  17. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    The other thing that occurs to me is that the additives in the sublinguals might interfere with absorption in some people, producing different results. We can't seem to get MeCbl tabs with no additives. (I wrote to Jarrow about the citric acid being a problem. They told me I was wrong. Talk about bad customer service.)

    There is also the very annoying possibility that different people have different MeCbl absorption profiles, even not accounting for additives. My ND suggested this when I told her that very little MeCbl absorbs into the blood from the stomach, and she opined that it depended on the stomach.

    Perhaps absorption profiles also vary over time. There may even be ceilings to absorption, or some kind of resistance past a certain point, something freddd has suggested from time to time.

    This is one of my posts that I'm not at all sure is helpful. :) I suppose that I'm saying, let's keep in mind that our abilities to absorb MeClb may be different, and even change over time, and keep trying to understand. Keep a log. Test suppositions.
     
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  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @garyfritz, I am expecting my oils to arrive in a couple of days! I'll let you know about colors, since I ordered both methylB12 and Ad/MeB12.
    Greg was insanely helpful with suggestions about my snps and supplements, and since I have a +/+ VDR Bsm mutation, he is putting vitamin D3 into both of my oils.
     
  19. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Cool, @picante! I didn't know he could do that. I also have VDR Bsm, but only +/-. I take D3 every morning.

    Good luck with the oils!

    On the color issue: I haven't felt well for the last few weeks, basically since I got the "pink" methyl. I don't know if it's just a coincidence and something else is causing my issues, or if my previous methyl really was deep-red and the pink is not working for me. I've been taking 15-20mg of CL a day and still not sleeping well -- basically what I was doing before I started the oils. So yesterday I switched from 1/day ad/me + 2/day methyl, to 3/day ad/me. I want to see if that produces results like I was seeing last month.
     
  20. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @garyfritz, if the methylB12 used to be deep red and is now pink, something has changed. Could it be degrading in transit? Does Greg say that it has always been pink? (I'm thinking that since there are different intensities of pink, you two might not be talking about the same color.)
     

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