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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    The problem here is .... there is no overgrowth, because if there was the labs would pick it up ..... just a change in how they interact and probably a change in species of the same type......

    The undetectable infection
     
  2. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    The Undetectable Infection 101 - Bacterial Pathogenesis

    I will leave the why they become pathogenic until last, so let us look at what they do to our mucous membranes.

    We will look at the really nasty one first, that being enterococcus faecalis. The most-cited virulence factors are aggregation substance, surface adhesins, sex pheromones, lipoteichoic acid, extracellular superoxide production, the lytic enzymes gelatinase and hyaluronidase, and the toxin cytolysin.

    Gelatinase allows the bacteria to dissolve the epithelial layer of the mucous membranes, giving it access to the cells below, hyaluronidase completely lyses the cells in which the enterococcus enters. This completely dissolves the cells and allows the bacteria to move between cells, it basically allows the bacteria to tunnel between the cells.

    So here I present the first revelation, that being anemia. If you are colonized with pathogenic enterococcus it is highly likely you are anemic. Cytolysin is a neurotoxin that completely destroys hemoglobin which results in an oversupply of free iron on the mucous membrane surface. In the gut, this can result in an e-coli overgrowth, and can also leave a metallic taste in your mouth when these bugs are most active. The super oxide production creates an environment that supports the overgrowth of other faculative anaerobes such as streptococcus and lactobacillus and lowering the levels of anaerobes which are required for a healthy microbione. Enterococcus are also prolific lactic acid producers.

    Streptococcus species are either alpha, beta or gamma hemolytic. Viridans streptococcus is either alpha or gamma hemolytic which means they either partially affect red blood cells or they don't affect red blood cells. Beta hemolysis occurs with group A, B and C, which are the recognized pathogenic strep and like pathogenic enterococcus damage/kill cells and macrophages and kill hemoglobin cells. Streptolysin O and Streptolysin S are the toxins associated with Beta Hemolysis. Pathogenic strains also contribute to superoxide production which changes the aerobe:anaerobe ratio.

    The undetectable infection therefore contains species of viridans streptococcus which are only partially or alpha hemolytic. The streptolysin toxins produced such as pneumolysin, Mitolysin etc. only damage cells which results in a non pyogenic (non pus forming) inflammation. As with enterococcus, strep species endotoxin is lipoteichoic acid, which is their spiky skins. This is the second part of the inflammation process and as the bacteria dies, their skins can enter the bloodstream resulting in inflammation in other areas. Streptococcus are also prolific lactic acid producers.

    When pathogenic strains are in abundance they create an environment which is toxic to other beneficial strains. The blood agar looks the same but in fact the microbione has changed. But to the lab culture there is no way to identify this. No pathogens are present, so normal flora is returned.

    Streptococcus sanguinis and parasanguinis are 2 species that consistently show up in stool samples of people I know who are diagnosed with ME/Fibromyalgia. These species are the cause of dental plaque and are known cause of endocarditis, meningitis and bacteremia. According to the literature these are rarely isolated away from teeth. The streptolysin from these and the mitis group strains is very similar to streptococcus pneumonia, which causes respiratory tract infection.

    Therefore if you are one of those people who suffer from chronic sore throat or swollen neck glands etc. it is highly likely that it is pathogenic strains from the streptococcus sanguinis and/or mitis group ... that is where I would start..

    This is the undetectable infection ....
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  3. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I'm guessing that this is a typo and you mean pathogenesis? I noticed that you used 'parthenogenesis' earlier so was expecting some stuff on asexual reproduction of the microbes.
     
  4. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Sorry ... you are correct, it is a typo ...

    Cheers.
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    The symptoms you mention are very similar to other infections. How does one test for this.
    Sore throat and swollen neck glands is extremely common in ebv/ cmv as well as other viral infections. symptoms are but a guide, to be accurate some type of testing needs to be done.
    Eg in glandular fever, the throat and swollen neck glands as well a fatigue and myalgias are a guide to glandular fever. If Viral testing shows igm or high igg titres to ebv and elevated lymphocytes to confirm the diagnosis. This is the same with cmv.

    Maybe throat cultures could detect bacterial infection?
     
  6. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    They can if you are looking for known pathogens or an overgrowth of something out of the ordinary, but this is normal flora .... so when the lab tests are returned, even if it is in abundance, it is not returned as the cause .....

    Here in Australia, under medicare, labs are not allowed to look for anything outside their charter .... Viridans strep if found is normal flora and is not investigated further ..... That is the worldwide gold standard, according to our health minister......

    How many people (other than me) with ME have chronic throat problems, vaganitis, prostatitis, sore eyes, urethritis, or any other mucosal inflammation with no known cause?? How do the doctors explain that???

    Have a look and a search for a condition called aerobic vaginitis ..... enterococcus, viridans strep, e-coli and Group B Strep are the known causes ..... pathogenic normal flora ........ Can only be determined through PCR testing ......

    This is the undetectable infection ......
     
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    So the only way to know is if its an issue is to treat it and see if one responds to it.
     
  8. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    Heaps, elevated lymphocytes are indicative for any infection, so just high igm/igg for ebv/cmv doesn't tell much. I think that reactivations are a possibility, but if you have acute glandular fever you have high fever and feel like shit, not cfs-like shit but, flu-like shit. I had 3 x normal IGG for ebv back then and considered the trigger infection to be adult onset mononucleosis. But after thinking about it, the symptoms did simply not match up much. I was in the viral camp for a long time but have since then questioned it and now consider a chronic subacute bacterial infection more likely. Doesn't mean you can't have both, but viruses usually cause an acute episode and then even those that stay in your system dormant usually do not cause any symptoms until there is another acute episode (e.g. chickenpox / shingles).
     
  9. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    what about the fact that ME/CFS affects predominantly women?
     
  10. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    I question that, IMO this is simply bias because women usually tend to externalize physical and emotional issues faster than men who think they can "push through it" (http://consumer.healthday.com/publi...0/women-see-doctors-more-than-men-400589.html). If it is indeed a chronic bacterial infection and spreadable through mucous membranes, women would also be at a slight disadvantage because there is way more exposed attackable "mucousy" surface area in the genitals.
     
  11. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Aimossy,

    I can explain that with this theory ...... but I need to think about how I deliver it ......

    But I reckon there is a lot of men out there, who only have very mild symptoms, so they never get diagnosed ....
     
    aimossy likes this.
  12. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I would not recommend that, these bugs are multi-drug resistant, we need to be a bit more scientific or you will just make it worse ...... Have you done a bioscreen test??
     
    aimossy likes this.
  13. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    @mellster If you take that stance on a flip side of the coin if more men did have it more hoo haaa might have happened about getting to the bottom of it.
    I was actually more thinking along the lines of female sex hormones maybe making us possibly more prone to it, but saying that could be a very gross overgeneralisation as well.
     
    Woolie and MeSci like this.
  14. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    @Elph I am wondering what type of research is needed that would be able to detect this.Would Lipkins work or Invest in ME work have a good chance if this turned out to be true?
     
    rosie26 likes this.
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    @mellster the above was an example of swollen glands could mean any infection just as u say high lymphocytes are but I think putting several of these together are needed to come up with a diagnosis.

    Not every acute infection shows someone is febrile, there is also such a thing as cold sepsis so I guess there is alot in between. But again we cant go by one symptom such as being febrile.

    Chronic infection would also probably present differently to an acute infection. As for an initiating infectious cause, know one knows and probably individual. Multiple infections are another thing again.

    I think we have to try and treat what we find and see how we respond. I can only speak for myself but testing I had as well as the initiating infection put me in the antiviral/herpes sub group. After using antivirals with good improvement confirms to me that herpes viruses are an issue for me. Now im not saying this is going to be the case for everyone but its worth looking into as theres a treatment for it.

    Also just to mention dr lerners research that those with active herpes infection with bacterial co infections are the hardest to treat.

    The only thing we can really say about cfs is that we have an immune dysfunction, so any infection is possible and I wouldnt count any infection out.
     
  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    [quh68, post: 410574, member: 12264"]I would not recommend that, these bugs are multi-drug resistant, we need to be a bit more scientific or you will just make it worse ...... Have you done a bioscreen test??[/quote]
    Im prompting an answer from u as u havent been able to tell us how to test for it. Now your suggesting a test. Sorry im confused.
     
  17. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    I don't think your run of the mill doctor or researcher will solve this, there is too much general guidance by the government and the insurances to not pursue this seriously. IMO only if a very rich person/family is directly and heavily affected, or if people like Elph and others join together with researchers around the world (must include non-western researchers that don't subscribe to the current mainstream/money politics) via crowd-sourcing/crowd-funding, then there might be a fast-tracked path to solving this puzzle.
     
  18. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    What about those that don't have any of these symptoms?
     
  19. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I am already heading down that path .... I have an 8 year old daughter they won't treat here.

    I have gone into the old eastern block and found a facility that agrees my theory is possible and is prepared to investigate and treat it .... BUT that is all I am prepared to say .....
     
  20. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Generally only those that have an interleukin 10 defficiency will have a constant or ongoing visible inflammation ..... The rest will still have all the markers, but little or no visible inflammation ....
     

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