Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    @reallyconfused,

    2% milk has 18% of the liquid proteins in milk, as is in all varieties of cow milk. There are whey sensitivities that are not methyltrap. I get IBS from milk. The lactase pills make no difference for me. Go without any milk for a couple of weeks, then drink it daily for 2 weeks. Do that a few times and you will know whether you can tolerate it or not. I don't know what causes my sensitivities. Candy with whey in it does make me sick with less than I thought would matter after a few years without. it.

    Groups 1, 2a and 2b are low potassium and that is usually a flag that healing has started. Group 3 symptoms, l-methylfolate insufficiencies, can be caused by lack of MeCbl in the cell at the instant needed which fails with folate deficiency symptoms. The questions with folinic acid, veggie folates and folic acid concern whether a person is having only group 3 symptoms having only folate deficiency symptoms without any healing signs or having groups 1,2a, 2b, and 3 indicating healing in some compartments and folate deficiency in others.
     
  2. jhlyon

    jhlyon

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    hi @Freddd i have been seeing some progress using your advice. but i wanted to ask if in your experience it's possible get good results while still taking gabapentin (neurontin)? it can interfere with b12, but i'm not sure how much it really interferes. perhaps you have come across people who were taking it before?
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi @jhlyon ,

    Glad to hear of progress. I never took Neurontin. I took Dilantin for I don't know exactly how long, perhaps 15 years, for burning neurological pain and it worked very well. Less than a year after starting MeCbl the neurological pain was relieved and I was able to discontinue Dilantin, Albuterol,other asthma meds, compazine suppositories, 2400 mg/day of ibuprofen (no significant inflammation any more, nothing left that the ibuprofen helped. The Dilation didn't interfere as far as I can tell. It also can interfere with B12 or folate but the methylfolate didn't come along for a couple of more years after that for me. I know a lot of people have been able to discontinue or decrease a variety of medications but don't remember anything about neurontin specifically. I do remember a lot of drowsiness reported and many folks didn't find it useful but others did. You could do a trial withdrawal taper and see what differences it makes.
     
  4. jhlyon

    jhlyon

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    @Freddd thank you! i will try a taper. but good to know it probably won't interfere much either way
     
  5. jhlyon

    jhlyon

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    hi @Freddd i was wondering if you have any suggestions - since beginning your b12 etc regime in july - i have been improving though had a nasty fever for a long long time, which i attributed to old infections finally being confronted.

    however now i have a new problem - i am very irritable & become easily angry & find it hard to calm down. this is bizarre because i am a very chill person normally . do you have any idea what this could be and how to deal with it ?

    thanks.
     
  6. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Not Freddd but I have some comments.

    The methylation protocol boosts the production of methyl groups which, among other things, methylates vitamin B3 and renders it unavailable. It is possible that after prolonged methylation treatment, a B3 deficiency may have resulted.

    Several people on this forum have reported problems with vitamin B1/thiamine deficiency after taking methylation supplements, eg. here. It is possible the methylation protocol also depletes B1.

    Irritability is a symptom of both B3 deficiency and B1 deficiency.

    Dr Derrick Lonsdale thinks there is an association between B1 deficiency and recurrent fever.
     
  7. jhlyon

    jhlyon

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    @Eastman thats very interesting - thank you for your comment. does it seem to be possible to simply take increased doses of b1 and/or b3 in addition to continuing methylation protocol, or do you have to stop taking b12 altogether?
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    The year after I had been healing got a sore throat and fever. It wasn't a strep, and the whole thing was persistent and not too intense. It took a couple of months and went away and I haven't had anything like it again in 13 years. I had persistently swollen glands for decades. Docs said "It ,must be scar tissue by now". With 16 grams of vitamin C daily they normalized in a year. It could perhaps be a methylfolate insufficiency in one compartment.

    "i am very irritable & become easily angry & find it hard to calm down.". Now this is a different thing. This could be low potassium. Look on the symptoms, not just the ones you mentioned. However, potassium can happen at the same time as other things. And a trial day of 300mg each few hours of potassium is no harm and could save you a lot of problems. If ignored the potassium symptoms become up to fatal. Concerning the irritable and angry mood. Some people have a sequence of moods including those when starting certain items. Do you have anxiety normally. If so this could be from starting the mitochondrial working better and is often tied to the l-carnitine. Sometimes it is if taking a small dose and it runs out before the day is over. Other times it is on a rising level and a person needs to microtitration from 100 mcg to work up to a normal doise and functionality. It can also be a lack of MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate or L-carnitine (right form for your body). It can be the balance between MeCbl and AdoCbl. If a person takes glutathione or precursors like NAC they can experience "glutathione detox" or "NAC detox" which is a severe B12 deficiency induced by a possible genetic problem. Whey can also cause this but it takes longer. Some people can experience it from folate deficiency caused by folic acid or folinic acid or even too many veggie folates. Let me know if any of these situations possibly ring the bell. With these nutritional items, if is potassium, it can take hours to feel better. Some things take a day but most is pretty quick.


    Version 2.21 12/06/2016 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.
    INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often sufferring REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Methylfolate, MeCbl and just about anythjing else that starts healing can cause the folate deficiency symptoms.

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
    Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline
    Edema
    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
    Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.
    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
    Longer term, very serious:
    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.

    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

    Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.

    Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone

    Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
    High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.

    Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
    When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.

    Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.
    Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
    Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects.
    Runaway tooth decay
    Loss of calcium in bones and teeth

    https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html

    Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.

    Group 9 - Vanadium insufficiency
    Deficiency of vanadium is poorly known or recognized. It affects tissue permeabilty like insulin.

    Group 10 - Lithium insufficiency Non ionizing forms, small micronutrient doses

    Lithium allows better permiability of B12 in nervous system memeberanes

    Group 11 - Iodine insufficiency, especially needed for those who don't eat iodized table salt and/or seafood.


    Group 11 - Iodine
     
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  9. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    I have MTRR A66G ++ and am doing well on methylcobalamin injections daily plus high dose mehtylfolate daily, and Adenosylcobalamin a few times weekly. I also need LCF (L-Carnitine Fumarate) and lots of other minerals and vitamins. I have gone from bed/couch ridden to short easy walks (exercise building is a work in progress, any more exercise for now makes me crash) plus general housework and working from home on my laptop. I have multiple MTRR, and other polymorphisms too; not sure how much they matter, but am doing well on above regime...
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  10. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    If the methylation protocol is indeed depleting your B1 and/or B3, then stopping it would stop further depletion. That was what I did, relying on the B12 in my B complex only.

    If you really need the B12, though, stopping it might give you problems obviously.

    I guess you'll just have to experiment on your own.

    Just note that if you stop B12 and start B1 and/or B3 simultaneously and your condition changes, you can't be sure whether the change is from stopping B12 or starting B1/B3.
     

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