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Startup? Detox? Confused here

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cman89, Dec 4, 2014.

  1. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Howdy there folks, so I am currently on round two of methylation therapy after trying a short trial run earlier this summer. The trial run involved Jarrow Methyl B12 Country Life Adeno B12, Solgar metafolin, Jarrow B complex (as per old recommendations of Freddd) L-carnitine, and coenzyme Q. I saw decent results with it, they were not life changing, but it did seem like my sleep was helped, and i slowly gained a little bit of energy. I hit a flatline rather quickly though, and when my supps ran out, I stopped, to see what would happen. I backslid the most on mood and sleep, but it was not that drastic. Decided to try this process again, with updated recommendations from freddd. I have been on round two for about a week now. Here is what i am taking:
    solgar metafolin (one tablet twice a day)
    Enzymatic Therapy Methyl b12 (one a day)
    Anabol Naturals Adeno B12 (one a day)
    Source naturals L-carn (one a day)
    Potassium support.
    I am not taking a multi due to folic acid content and no b complex. No coenzyme either. I have been on round two for one an a half weeks or so, and I am now having more disturbing side effects than I did the first time I tried this, and my overall level of health was better this time (confusing). Every time I use the Methyl B12, I get all or some of the following: My tinnitus cranks up, my hearing gets distorted, I get extremely cold, my eyes dry out, BP rises, my teeth grind, and lately, I have been getting very tired early in the day. These are all symptoms I have had in the past, but at separate times, in other words, I felt as they were resolved.
    I am extremely confused on why this second go around is giving me far more radical side effects than the first, especially since I have improved a little bit since then. I assumed some symptoms may be due to Potassium issues, so i have ramped up that intake plus Vit D, but I have increased food intake and am not gaining a single LB. I can take most of the symptoms save for the being cold and the extra tiredness, those have been extremely unpleasant.
    I want to continue through this if there is a definite upside, but not if I am causing myself to regress. I have not been as debilitated as some of you, and so I have much further to fall, so to speak. On the other hand, I have been seeing improvement in physical exertion (when not bone tired) and recovery. Mental clarity has been affected though, and I dont like that, as Brain Fog was not an original symptom of mine. Any Help?
     
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Are you taking in enough iodine?
     
  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @cman89 Please break up your paragraphs. too hard to read and comprehend. Thx.

    I think many of us have found it's essential to be supporting the other Bs as well. These things all interact. Look at the comments here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/just-asking-for-a-little-help-to-get-started.34176/

    I don't think these are symptoms that just resolve, but are flags to current issues. My tinnitus is quite clearly a symptom of adrenal stress; I now welcome and respect it as a warning I must take care of my adrenals. It's possible there are adrenal links to most or all of these symptoms, eg. cold sounds like possible thyroid, but thyroid/adrenal are like front and back of the hand.

    It's possible that all these symptoms could be due to lack of the other B's. @Gondwanaland who comments on the thread I linked, has found extremely small amounts of nutrients like the Bs makes a huge difference to the overall function.

    Also, Fred's current suggestion is to take all your AdB12 on one day, and not take MB12 that day, to improve absorption of both.
     
    melamine likes this.
  4. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Not sure on that.
     
  5. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    I have a b complex with me, and in fact, it reduced headache in th epast,, but it has folic acid, which I am trying to avoid this time...
     
  6. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Methylation will cause increased demand for iodine and it is very uncommon in food supply these days. You might want to get a supplemented form. You would only need a dropper and at least 150mcg a day which is the RDA. Iodine deficiency causes a sluggish thyroid and hypo thyroid symptoms which a lot of this possibly sounds like.

    Iodine can be contradicted in the case of hashimotos disease so if thats an issue then don't take it, however still important to take enough selenium to balance the iodine as well. Lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, and seeds can work as a good selenium source.
     
  7. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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    Metafolin 200mcg 2/day or 800mcg 2/day?

    I agree with Ahmo.
    Also, the first thing I would do is heed your body's signals and cut back, re-read Freddd's starting protocol, as well as add multi-vitamin/mineral supplements when you find some that will work. Swanson is one brand that makes a co-enzymated B formula with Mfolate at 800mcg, which you would want to factor into your other dose if it's true to strength. It contains methylB12, but if you end up swallowing it all, only a negligible amount would be expected to be absorbed, so not affecting your main dosing of that.

    In the meantime, you might be better off using your folic acid containing multi B, than using none. Maybe in several small divided doses.

    CoQ 10 and/or L-Carnitine could be a problem(?) Some recommend against CoQ 10 altogether, I believe, and I thought Freddd did not recommend adding L-Carnitine until later (?) Potassium may need to be balanced with some other electrolytes. There are definite symptoms when something like Potassium is wanting, like heart palpitations, so adding more in the absence of specific signs is probably not going to help, assuming you're using at least an adequate amount.

    It's a good idea to familiarize yourself with how nutritional needs shift and are affected by increased methylation so that you can gain a more intuitive understanding as you move along.

    Martial recommended iodine and you probably would not go wrong adding some, as well as more zinc, selenium, molybdenum. I use Iodoral and/or kelp/and/or a triple iodine capsule formula, not only to compensate for the Himilayan non-iodized salt that I use on my food, but in additional supplemental quantity too, because of fluoride in the water supply. I have also been using DaVinci Labs multi-mineral. I believe they have different formulas, some with or without iron or copper.

    Lithium orotate is a mineral that some people find useful and is included in Amy Yasko's newer formulas, which, however, do not work with Freddd's protocol because of the Hydroxy form of B12 that she uses.

    I am somewhat new to this myself and welcome corrections to my suggestions from anyone here with more experience.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  8. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    A main difference this time is that I am trying to watch the Folic acid/Methylfolate interference effect via supplements. I figure that I dont want to disregard that. I also am using updated supplement suggestions, so I am likely having stronger results than before.
     
  9. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    do you have any experience or info on a possible herxheimer reaction from Methylation? I am trying to discern if that is also going on...
     
  10. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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    everyone seems to be different. There are several New Post threads on here that address methylation problems. I find that reading both Freddd's and Richvank/Nathan version of Amy Yasko simplified has given me a better understanding. I am also reading as many threads on here as possible to try to get a feel for different people's reactions and experiences, and to reinforce some of the finer points of co-factors and things that other people here are more familiar with.

    From what I've read, the first thing to consider is too much folate relative to B12 when starting or starting again. Some people are apparently too sensitive to the methyl form and do better with the HydroxyB12 protocol, which is very similar except for trading out the B12s. I am starting with the methyl one now because I had some on hand, but ordered hydroxyB12 in case I find I have a problem with it and to experiment down the line with. I also really like the multi vitamin that was designed specifically for the hydroxy program but might not (or might?) work with the other.

    I don't think it's referred to so much as herx. with methylation as overmethylation, where something gets out of balance - too much folate to b12 is the usual, but rarely, the other way around. Not enough potassium when methylation starts increasing, not enough magnesium, zinc etc...when cellular regeneration starts picking up....
     
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  11. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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    "Pernicious anemia and hydroxy B12 help please" thread and a couple others have some good info. One about B6...
     
  12. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    thanks
     
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  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Methyfolate triggered a detox-retox explosion in my body.
     
    melamine likes this.
  14. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Heavy metals, bacterial, what? And how did you remedy it?
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    HMs... At least that's my impression. Anything I ate made me breathless (SULT SNPs). There was just too much for my liver to process. I only got better after one month on 600mg daily of magnesium.

    But my background here is important: I had been trying to add magnesium to my supplementation unsuccessfully for a long time. I could not tolerate any organic form or even sulfate (now I know it's due to my combo of SNPs). Plus I had been on some rounds of abx which let me really depleted from Mg.
     
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  16. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    I see. It seems I can tolerate MG ok, but I was first treated and felt better in June-July for a suspected bacterial infection. Unfortunately, I was never tested directly for Lyme and whatnot, only treated off MRI results. It made me feel better, so I did not pursue it further until I crashed as the result of emotional effects of a relationship breakup. That introduced new symptoms such as insomnia and heart rate stuff that I had not had before. Also, I tried an old version of Methylation in Aug with little side effects. Now, I am having some side effects that I want to address. some of them were ones I went through in June, so that is why I suspect some sort of Herx type thing going on. Not sure though
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    High or low?
     
  18. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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    I'd say there is probably a key to your current problems in whatever became particularly depleted as a result of that prolonged stress, so that you were going into detox with less than adequate nutritional status?
     
  19. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Well, its been three months, and the insomnia that resulted from the stress has been managed, so...
     
    melamine likes this.
  20. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    all across the board. and actually, methylation/ b12 has given me better cardio energy. one of the main reasons that I feel it can work. The side effects are the concern
     

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