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Request Assistance Brainstorming Root-cause of B-Vitamin Deficiencies

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by JasonUT, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    Hello All,

    I recently got my OAT and SpectraCell Micronutrient panel back with some odd results. I am waiting on my Methylation Pathways Panel results.

    Current Deficiencies: B1, B2, B3, B6, B9, Serine, Glutamine, Oliec Acid, Glutathione.

    I eat three balanced meals a day with occasional snacks between meals. I also take a long list of supplements. I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs.

    What could be some possible reasons why I am still deficient in just these items?

    All my other vitamins and nutrients are in good to very good status. B2, B12, B5, Biotin, Vitamin C, E, D, K, A, Calcium, Manganese, Zinc, Copper, Mg, Cysteine, CoQ10, Selenium, ALA.

    You can follow a more detailed post here.
    Also, you can see my full supplement list here.

    Supplement Dosing at time of 3/28 samples:
    B1 - 45 mg
    B2 - 100 mg
    B3 - 150 mg
    B5 - 50 mg
    B6 - 60 mg
    B9 - 12.6 mg
    aB12 - 3 mg
    mB12 - 2.2 mg
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Hi,
    so you're saying that with the current dosing you have listed here, you still result deficient?

    I kinda find it difficult to believe that you could be folate deficient taking 15.6mg per day! Unless it's micrograms and not millis?

    Same for all other which are dosed very high.

    cheers
     
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    That is a controversial subject. A balanced meal for me is a moving target.
     
    Izola likes this.
  4. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    Correct. Still deficient. Perplexing to say the least. This is why I am asking for help.

    Corrected above post, I was taking 12.6 mg of mFolate daily for months prior to lab samples.
    Breakfast = 5.2 mg (Emarld Labs Men's 1-Daily + 5 mg Metabolic Maintenance)
    Lunch = 1.4 mg (Jarrow B-Right + 1 mg Solgar)
    Dinner = 1 mg (1 mg Solgar)
    Bedtime = 5 mg (5 mg Metabolic Maintenance)

    I increased mFolate to 15.6 mg and B1 to 245 mg on 4/12/2017 based on OAT and SpectraCell results. I am hoping this makes a difference. I am nervous about increasing B2, B3, or B6 anymore.

    Still begs the question, how am I deficient in just these items, but everything else looks so good?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  5. zelda

    zelda

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    I would think about two things maybe.

    Is there something draining these nutrients, ie some sort of toxin, biotoxin, inflammation, etc.. that has yet to be addressed.

    Or is there some sort of transport issue, reason these things at high doses are just not making it into the cell? Maybe a cofactor, genetic transport issue or cell membrane issue.
     
  6. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    Hi @JasonUT

    I looked back through your other thread and noticed I'd already said everything I would want to say at the moment, and you've already picked up on it a bit:
    Your supplements don't seem to have that 25mg (or less) of B2 (or FMN) spread over the day.

    Low B2 is a disaster - and it could account for other levels of some other things being low. In your position, I would give that a go as a priority.

    As for generally low levels, some underlying infection or inflammation is a good guess, but it does make it hard to know where to go from there.

    Finally, if you aren't producing enough stomach acid, you won't absorb quite a few nutrients from your healthy diet. We found that 6 months of Freddd's B12 protocol fixed that, but we used the betaine HCL until then (taken right at the end of a meal with protein in it).
     
  7. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    "The stomach has to secrete enough acid plus the digestive enzyme “pepsin” to extract vitamin B12 from food. Once it's free, the nutrient has to combine with a protein known as “intrinsic factor” secreted by the stomach lining, which protects it while it's transported to the small intestine for absorption"

    So:
    • Hypochloridia?
    • Pepsin deficiency?
    • Stomach and gut inflammation?
    • Low intrinsic factor?
    -J
     
    PeterPositive likes this.
  8. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    Several years ago a doctor had me do the SpectraCell testing and I showed as being deficient in a few vitamins and minerals. When my GP saw the test results she said that the testing results didn't make any sense and that she didn't put any value in them.
     
    JaimeS likes this.
  9. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    My B12 status is extremely good. It's b1, b2, b3, b6, and b9 that I have issues with.
     
  10. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    I asked my nutritionist the accuracy and dependability of the the SpectraCell micro nutrient test. He said very accurate and the science behind it is very sound. I trust him based on his credentials and experience with pro athletes. He was also a member of the nutritional team for the 2000 Sydney Olympics.
     
  11. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    In that case, can I ask whether you have gone grains free and dairy free?
    • Grains free: can lead to a deficiency of B1 (this is a common problem from a gluten free diet)
    • Dairy free: milk, yoghurt and other dairy products are the main source of B2 in a western diet.
    If you lack these (and B2 is what I've read about more), then you will have problems using the B12 and the B9 that you ingest.

    I've often wondering if sports scientists could add something to this cause: tweaking diet for increased performance is a big thing now we try to avoid doping up athletes.
     
  12. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Naviaux found a variety of metabolic derangements characterised this disease. A few seemed common to all but there was a great deal of individual variation.

    Maybe some of your individual metabolic problems are manifest in a high need for certain nutrients, higher than you have been supplying.
     
    ukxmrv likes this.
  13. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    You could try this product, which I've been using for years now.
    http://www.supersmart.com/en--Vitamins--Coenzymated-B-Formula--0540

    It's sublingual, doesn't taste very good :lol: but it works wonders. I take 1/2 lozenge every day or (every other day) and it's absorbed very well.

    I have lots of digestive issues and low stomach acid so oral vitamins, especially the Bs don't work too much for me.

    Good luck

    p.s. = edited to fix the link (was in French)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    JaimeS and Marc_NL like this.
  14. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    @CCC

    Your thoughts and my thoughts are converging... I started taking FMN 25 mg at breakfast and Lunch on 3/26/2017. I think I am just now started to see urine saturation 4 weeks later. So that leaves me with B1, B3, B6, and B9. I am hoping my other deficiencies rebound once I get my B-Vitamin levels fixed. Maybe this is wishful thinking.

    I just ordered Source Naturals CoEnzamtic B1 sublingual. Apparently, B1 deficiency can lead to low Stomach Acid [Source1, Source2]. This supports your point about betaine HCL. Maybe fixing B1, will fix stomach acid, which will fix digestion, and everything else will fall into place. Apparently, oral B1 is useless when trying to replete and is rate limited to 4.5 mg oral [Source1, Source2]. It's a Catch22 due to poor digestion caused by low B1. I don't currently have access to IV or IM so I am hoping Sublingual will work.

    Yes, I am trying grain free and dairy free which seems to be consistent with the latest Palio Diet trend. My nutritionist mentioned that some of his patients are forced to take a B-Complex with each meal. Maybe grain free and dairy free is not right for me or massive B-Complex support is warranted.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  15. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    Your thoughts are converging with my nutritionist's thoughts. He thinks I may burn through B-Vitamins at an extremely rapid rate due to extremely high metabolic rate or there maybe a genetic transport issue with B-Vitamins.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  16. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    Good suggestion. I need to search for a comparably product in the USA. Keep the ideas coming. This is great brainstorming. No such thing as a bad idea at this point. Just trying to get all ideas on the table. I can sift through them later with some subsequent research and discussion with my docs.
     
  17. Silence

    Silence

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  18. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    FOUR WEEKS?

    Okay, so my son took six weeks to see any excess, so I can't really comment too much here.:whistle:

    All I can say, is don't stop taking it. It was one of the major keys for us.

    You might also find that you can eventually go to the cheaper B2 after another month or so. Sublinguals are hard on your teeth. It's good to get away from them if you can.

    I hadn't read that one, but my son doesn't seem to need much B1 apart from diet, so you're exploring where we haven't been.
    Agree there. The B12 oils have a B-group oil that includes B1. If it's not too expensive for you to buy from Australia, that could be something to try.
     
  19. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    It's not consistent satiation yet. Some days urine looks saturated and other days it doesn't. I am definitely not giving up on FMN B2 sublingual. Symptoms and nutrient lab testing validate that this is a piece of the overall puzzle. Thanks for your help.

    Fortunately, my insurance is very generous with SpectraCell nutrient testing; therefore, I should be able to use routine nutrient testing to track progress.

    Still need to tackle B1, B3, B6, and B9. There has been a lot of good feedback so far.
     
  20. JasonUT

    JasonUT

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    Hello All,

    I posted some of my layman's research findings and personal thoughts on Thiamine (B1) in my other thread in post #30 and #36.

    B3, B6, and B9 seem a little more complicated to tackle.
    B3 in the form of Niacin can cause flushing at it's tolerable upper limit [Source]. Maybe a different form is needed.
    B6 in larger doses can cause neuropathy at it's tolerable upper limit [Source].
    B9 or Folate - I am already taking 15.6 mg per day of mFolate. I have heard of higher doses, but this makes me nervous. There seems to be a lot of opinions on proper folate dosing. Psychology Today's article "Methylfolate and Resistant Depression" does provide some information and references to research.

    The sublingual B-complex seems like it might be a good solution.

    How do I figure out root-cause for my deficiency and balance all these B-Vitamins correctly? This seems terribly challenging.
     

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