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repairing with B12 without overmethylation?

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Lotus97 thanks for the info on Potassium Chloride. I'm really hoping I may only need to take lots for a couple of months when red blood cell replenishment should be mostly done. It's too soon to have a victory party but taking 10000 Jarrow diminished the deficiency symptoms (burning mouth, hands, feet) to almost unnoticeable levels for the first time in months. The symptoms began returning when I neared 24 hours since taking it. I would have taken some this morning, but was going to be away from home and didn't want to be running to the bathroom if low potassium symptoms were a problem. I took 10000 again today and will probably take 10000 again tomorrow morning. I don't know why I'm afraid of taking a lot. My symptoms got worse the less I took! BUT I will need a few more good days to be sure this was the problem for me. My gelatin capsules for making my own potassium chloride caps should come today and I should be able to control the hypokalemia. I hope you get to feeling better soon.
Are you taking any methylfolate, SAMe, TMG, or niacin with your B12? If you're not sure why I'm asking for each of those I can explain later.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I heard from someone else today (besides Boo who created this thread) who also had a hypersensitivity to B12. This person said they were able to tolerate methylfolate without any problems, but even a very small amount of hydroxocobalamin (not even methylcobalamin) caused them problems. They tried taking B12 with and without methylfolate, but that didn't make a difference in their response to B12. I don't know how it could be overmethylation since the response was the same with or without methylfolate. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't make sense.
 
Messages
97
A friend of mine worked at a vitamin company doing testing in the lab. She said to always keep your supplements in the bottles they came in because many become unstable and less potent when exposed to light. That's why they are in opaque or dark bottles.
Also B vitamins become less stable when exposed to water.

determined
I've also heard of some people getting benefit from tiny amounts of carnitine. If someone is hypothyroid that would definitely be worth trying. Your strategy (and caledonia 's) would definitely save me a lot of money. I will look into muscle testing at some point, but I don't feel like dealing with it now. I didn't realize exposing a capsule to air would make a difference.

I set out many of my supplements a week in advance so they are exposed to some air I guess. I still experienced start-up from methylfolate after Jarrow's B right changed their formula and added methylfolate. That was certainly a shock! I had no clue what methylation or even methylfolate was.
 

NilaJones

Senior Member
Messages
647
I heard from someone else today (besides Boo who created this thread) who also had a hypersensitivity to B12. This person said they were able to tolerate methylfolate without any problems, but even a very small amount of hydroxocobalamin (not even methylcobalamin) caused them problems. They tried taking B12 with and without methylfolate, but that didn't make a difference in their response to B12. I don't know how it could be overmethylation since the response was the same with or without methylfolate. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't make sense.

Are you referring to me? I didn't even know my reaction was unusual until you expressed surprise.
 
Messages
19
Are you taking any methylfolate, SAMe, TMG, or niacin with your B12? If you're not sure why I'm asking for each of those I can explain later.
I am not. I am taking two B Rights a day in addition to the Jarrow B12s. I'm taking magnesium (which I have for a long time), vitamin C, fish oil and calcium.

I took some capsules filled with NoSalt and induced horrific heartburn. I've just been adding it to my food and drinks now throughout the day, and I can keep the hypokalemia under control. I'm just dealing with the taste. As for the other symptoms, they seem to return quite readily after several hours of not taking B12. But I'm not 100% sure that's what it is. Could the burning sensation also just be hypokalemia?

Because I'm back to lifting weights and my requirements for B12 are high, I'm increasing the Jarrow to compensate. I've been up to 6 of the 5000 tabs a day. The good thing is I don't notice any increase in low potassium symptoms doing that. I've considered taking folate and/or adB12, but I'm afraid to complicate matters. I am going to try more B12, then more potassium, and then I'll consider adding these to see if I get any relief from the burning. The burning sensation in the roof of my mouth is the most annoying. The rest I can deal with.
 
Messages
19
I heard from someone else today (besides Boo who created this thread) who also had a hypersensitivity to B12. This person said they were able to tolerate methylfolate without any problems, but even a very small amount of hydroxocobalamin (not even methylcobalamin) caused them problems. They tried taking B12 with and without methylfolate, but that didn't make a difference in their response to B12. I don't know how it could be overmethylation since the response was the same with or without methylfolate. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't make sense.
Maybe because they're not deficient in folate, but they are in B12. If I'm correct that taking B12 starts the process of repair which dramatically increases the need for B12 (like it does potassium), then the symptoms experienced are actually of B12 deficiency. I could be wrong, but I definitely have not had an increase in symptoms for taking much more B12.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Because I'm back to lifting weights and my requirements for B12 are high, I'm increasing the Jarrow to compensate. I've been up to 6 of the 5000 tabs a day. The good thing is I don't notice any increase in low potassium symptoms doing that. I've considered taking folate and/or adB12, but I'm afraid to complicate matters. I am going to try more B12, then more potassium, and then I'll consider adding these to see if I get any relief from the burning. The burning sensation in the roof of my mouth is the most annoying. The rest I can deal with.

I'm glad you're getting some relief from your symptoms. Hopefully you can take methylfolate at some point because methylation can help repair the myelin sheath. Maybe just taking methylcobalamin helps with myelination. I don't know much about this, but neuropathy is a complex issue and can't necessarily be boiled down to nutrient deficiencies. I seem to have some neuropathy, but I have Lyme disease so it might be from that. Rich said most people with CFS/ME have a "functional B12 deficiency" which is caused by glutathione depletion, but this might be different than the people say they have neuropathy due to B12 deficiency although people with ME/CFS also have neuropathy for various reasons. Marco wrote about it in a series of articles about ME/CFS being a neuroinflammatory condition. He discusses neuropathy in this article (there's links to his other articles at the end of this one)
http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...akes-on-symptoms-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
I know you said you don't have CFS/ME, but for anyone else following the thread they might be interested.

One other thing I wanted to ask/tell you. Based on what you said about your dosage of methylcobalamin, I'm assuming that you're taking Jarrow's "bad" methylcobalamin. Up until summer 2012 the quality of Jarrow's methylcobalamin was one of the best. After that the quality of Jarrow's dropped dramatically. There's a thread about it here:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

I don't know how much worse Jarrow's is now, but my guess is it's significant based on what others have said. Enzymatic Therapy is one of the best brands, but it only comes in 1000 mcg. You could still try that when you run out of Jarrow's. Bluebonnet and Solgar make a 5 mg methylcobalamin. Some of the people in that thread about Jarrow said they were pretty good, but I'm not sure if they're quite as good as Enzymatic. AOR also makes 15 mg methylcobalamin which might not be as good as Enzymatic either, but for higher doses that might be another option.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Are you referring to me? I didn't even know my reaction was unusual until you expressed surprise.

Yes I was. I've heard from several people with a strong reaction to methylfolate, but not B12. Most people can tolerate at least 200 mcg of methylfolate, but there's a small minority that experiences a hypersensitivity to methylfolate. Part of the reason Rich chose a multivitamin without methylfolate for his protocol was because some people might not be able to tolerate much methylfolate at the beginning of methylation in which case they wouldn't be able to get their vitamins and minerals if the multivitamin had methylfolate.
 
Messages
19
I'm glad you're getting some relief from your symptoms. Hopefully you can take methylfolate at some point because methylation can help repair the myelin sheath. Maybe just taking methylcobalamin helps with myelination. I don't know much about this, but neuropathy is a complex issue and can't necessarily be boiled down to nutrient deficiencies. I seem to have some neuropathy, but I have Lyme disease so it might be from that. Rich said most people with CFS/ME have a "functional B12 deficiency" which is caused by glutathione depletion, but this might be different than the people say they have neuropathy due to B12 deficiency although people with ME/CFS also have neuropathy for various reasons. Marco wrote about it in a series of articles about ME/CFS being a neuroinflammatory condition. He discusses neuropathy in this article (there's links to his other articles at the end of this one)
http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...akes-on-symptoms-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
I know you said you don't have CFS/ME, but for anyone else following the thread they might be interested.

One other thing I wanted to ask/tell you. Based on what you said about your dosage of methylcobalamin, I'm assuming that you're taking Jarrow's "bad" methylcobalamin. Up until summer 2012 the quality of Jarrow's methylcobalamin was one of the best. After that the quality of Jarrow's dropped dramatically. There's a thread about it here:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

I don't know how much worse Jarrow's is now, but my guess is it's significant based on what others have said. Enzymatic Therapy is one of the best brands, but it only comes in 1000 mcg. You could still try that when you run out of Jarrow's. Bluebonnet and Solgar make a 5 mg methylcobalamin. Some of the people in that thread about Jarrow said they were pretty good, but I'm not sure if they're quite as good as Enzymatic. AOR also makes 15 mg methylcobalamin which might not be as good as Enzymatic either, but for higher doses that might be another option.

Thanks so much for the information. I do have Enzymatic Therapy, so I will try taking it tomorrow instead. I did take some methylfolate today (800) and I don't notice much of a difference. The burning symptoms remain noticeable. I seem to have been wrong about needing more B12. The burning sensation in my palate which bothers me most is better thankfully. It was terrible yesterday. I read that people can feel terrible for quite some time while healing takes place. What I don't know is how long to tough it out before I question whether I'm healing or have just induced new deficiencies? It's interesting to me that even after a week of no supplements, I continue to have the symptoms (that I didn't have prior to taking methyl B12). Instead of B Right, I'm taking a high potency B multivitamin. I thought it might be a good idea in case some other deficiency is giving me fits. I took it for the first time today, so time will tell.

I really appreciate having someone to process this with! Thank you so much.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Thanks so much for the information. I do have Enzymatic Therapy, so I will try taking it tomorrow instead. I did take some methylfolate today (800) and I don't notice much of a difference. The burning symptoms remain noticeable. I seem to have been wrong about needing more B12. The burning sensation in my palate which bothers me most is better thankfully. It was terrible yesterday. I read that people can feel terrible for quite some time while healing takes place. What I don't know is how long to tough it out before I question whether I'm healing or have just induced new deficiencies? It's interesting to me that even after a week of no supplements, I continue to have the symptoms (that I didn't have prior to taking methyl B12). Instead of B Right, I'm taking a high potency B multivitamin. I thought it might be a good idea in case some other deficiency is giving me fits. I took it for the first time today, so time will tell.

I really appreciate having someone to process this with! Thank you so much.
I think some of the people with neuropathy said that taking too much too soon can sometimes make things worse so maybe you need a lower dose and then build. It's going to be hard for you to figure a dosage if you're taking Jarrow since like I said the quality is lower than other brands. I've heard from people who have been taking high doses of methylcobalamin for years, but when they stop the neuropathy returns. I don't know what the solution is, but I hope people are looking into the root cause beyond just B12 deficiency. One person said their serum B12 went down after taking lithium. There was also a thread about transcobalamin deficiency.
 
Messages
22
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I don't need extra potassium. However, I do need extra magnesium. My Nutreval test confirms this. I wouldn't want my potassium any higher than it already is. So this thing about needing potassium is not cut and dried. I would say that you should monitor your electrolytes and increase whatever is right for you (potassium and magnesium are electrolytes).

Apologies if you have addressed this further down the page, Caledonia, but I'm wondering if you could explain your muscle testing method? I've been trying to learn this myself, and I know it's tricky to learn because it's quite subtle, but I'm sort of struggling with it. I've lost confidence that I'm doing it properly and so I've stopped ... but I LOVE the idea of self-muscle testing.

Thanking ye,

Sue
 

Victronix

Senior Member
Messages
418
Location
California
Yes, probably the ideal plan would be to plan on having potassium on hand, and get levels checked soon after you start the protocol. But if you do start feeling horrible, its better to try taking potassium than not, to see if it helps (i.e., potassium gluconate, not food potassium). The dangers of getting too low too fast, and not taking any are much larger than the danger of taking too much.
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
But if you do start feeling horrible, its better to try taking potassium than not, to see if it helps (i.e., potassium gluconate, not food potassium). The dangers of getting too low too fast, and not taking any are much larger than the danger of taking too much.

I just have to speak up here. Potassium overdose can be fatal.

from
Clinical features and management of poisoning due to potassium chloride.

Saxena K.
Department of Emergency Medicine, St Paul-Ramsey Medical Center/Ramsey Clinic, Minnesota.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2689836

"Potassium toxicity manifests in significant, characteristic, acute cardiovascular changes with ECG abnormalities. Besides cardiovascular effects, neuromuscular manifestations in the form of general muscular weakness and ascending paralysis occur. Gastrointestinal symptoms manifest as nausea, vomiting, paralytic ileus, and local mucosal necrosis which may lead to perforation"
 

physicsstudent13

Senior Member
Messages
611
Location
US
I take sam-E at 1.4g a day which is used in methylation cycles and I think it repairs my liver as some studies seem to show. It does cause some nausea or discomfort sometimes it seems. It seems to help my sleep breathing disorder and is a precursor to myelin and melatonin and neurotransmitters. I wonder if demyelination occurs as we age

3 hepatologists told me not to take anything after my liver damage, but I'm not sure if I should take the sam-E after liver damage
 
Messages
22
Hi,

I was an under-methylator. I have been taking TMG 600mg-1200mg daily in the mornings for some time, and 5000mcg of Active B12 (4000mcg of Methyl and 1000mcg of adenosylcobalamin) for about the last month or so, etc....Is it possible to start over-methylating? I was feeling REALLY good for a while, but now I'm feeling over stimluated, like I've had too much caffeine. I don't feel any anxiety/panic, but just feel stimulated. And I also have some excess nervousness, and/or butterfly feelings in my stomach, but again, I don't have any anxiety/panic. I might get nervous more easily going into a meeting or a party, but I look forward to going and usually have a good time although I'm feeling really uncomfortable with this stimluation feeling. My heart rate is normal, I'm not sweating like a pig, just this uncomfortable stimulation feeling. And it has caused severe insomnia as I'm just very alert/wired. Just feels like I'm riddled with adrenaline yet not. This was a problem a year or two ago, any stressor or exercise would cause me to feel really stimluated and couldn't sleep. For the most part that has gone away, but now it's back after taking larger doses of B12 along with TMG. I worry I'm crashing my adrenals after everything I've done to get them stronger. But this may just be over methlyated and not anything adrenal related. I'm not sure though.

I thought I had some adrenal fatigue. And there's warnings about taking B12 as you could feel good for a while then crash your adrenals. Yet, I've heard you need B12 to keep your energy going so that your adrenals don't have to compensate.

I am MTRR++, so I require Methly-B12.

I'm also on 300mg of St. John's Wort, so it's possible I'm making too much of a particular neurotransmitter. But....

I could try some Niacin and see if this feeling shuts off. If it does, then maybe I need to lower my dose of B12 and/or TMG....5000mcg of Active B12 is kind of high, but for someone who is MTRR++ I thought I needed more and when I switched from taking about 1500mcg dry capsule to the 5000mcg sublingual I felt so much better. I was also sleeping better, more stable energy and moods. I was also taking about 5-10mg of iron to help with red blood cell formation.

I did run into some severe symptoms of low potassium the other day. My muscles were achy, weak legs, felt faint a couple of times, woozy. I took some potassium chloride and started feeling better. Could low Potassium due to taking all the B12, and spinning up methlyation cause my potassium levels to drop (I've heard it could), and could that cause these stimulation like feelings and insomnia?

Any thoughts? Thank you!!!

Soccer