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Regular Enteroviruses and Non-Cytopathic Enteroviruses

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by alex3619, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. ttt

    ttt

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    Thanx, Hip. You know, I actually did know that, which is why I qualified my question as an ignorant one -- I think y'all are a step or two (or three) ahead of me in looking at the difference between a regular enterovirus and a noncytopathic one. I'm still on Step 1 -- the difference between an enterovirus and a regular virus. I Googled it before I asked and couldn't find an answer. I was gonna post a separate thread to ask, but then I saw this thread, and I figured if anyone knows, you guys would know. So I'm hoping someone can explain that difference to me. Thanx! :)
  2. voner

    voner Senior Member

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    alex3169,

    have you discussed this with Prof. Edwards on this thread?

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tatement-on-uk-rituximab-trial-30-july.24499/

    I searched about halfway back on it not find anything. Just curious.
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That is very interesting. I wonder how ME/CFS patients might response to interferon beta treatment.

    As far as I know, interferon beta has not been tried on ME/CFS patients. I understand that Dr Jonathan Kerr wanted to perform such a trial, but funds were not forthcoming. Dr Chia used interferon alpha, gamma and delta in his ME/CFS research, but not beta.
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi ttt , there are many type of viruses. Enteroviruses are a group of viruses that are part of a larger group called picorna viruses. These are just labels for groups of viruses. Picorna viruses cause many cases of the common cold. Polio virus was an enterovirus. Many potential ME epidemics were closely associated with polio virus. Indeed I wonder if eradication of polio in the Western world has led to a decrease in epidemics, or the relabeling of epidemics is to blame. We don't get ME any more, we get post-Q fever, or post-SARS etc.

    So enteroviruses are just viruses that like to infect the gut, but also typically infect the respiratory tract, which is why they can occur with flu-like symptoms. Most importantly this group of viruses can attack B cells, and enteroviruses like living in muscle.
    merylg likes this.
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi voner , no I haven't discussed this. One problem is a lot of this is anecdotal - I don't know that a formal study has resulted in showing a loss of seroconversion, but I talk to people in which this happens. Edwards is aware of Bansal's findings, and so of the importance of changes in B cells. The WPI were the first to notice this, but I don't think they published it in a formal paper, they were having more than a few problems at the time. There is also the question of whether this is a general finding, or only right for subgroups. Alex.
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Enterovirus is just one among many viruses. There are many viruses out there. For example: herpes simplex virus (causes cold sores), human herpes six virus (HHV-6), norovirus (winter vomiting bug), Epstein-Barr virus (the mono virus), varicella zoster virus (causes chicken pox), influenza virus (causes flu), cytomegalovirus, adenovirus, measles virus, West Nile virus, coronavirus, etc, etc.

    In other words, an enterovirus is not a special type of virus; it is just the name of a particular virus.

    From the ME/CFS perspective, enterovirus is important since there is good evidence linking this virus to ME/CFS, and Dr Chia believes that enterovirus will turn out to be the main cause of ME/CFS. But other viruses have also been linked to ME/CFS — viruses such as Epstein-Barr virus, and HHV-6.

    However, Dr Chia's main focus is on enterovirus as the cause of ME/CFS.

    Dr Chia often uses the antiviral oxymatrine to treat enterovirus infections in ME/CFS patients.

    Incidentally, this info about noncytopathic enteroviruses is quite advanced stuff, so if you are just beginning to learn about these things (as we all were at one stage), I would not be too concerned about this more complex noncytopathic aspect of the enterovirus life cycle.

    In terms of the ME/CFS learning curve: a while ago I wrote an introductory article for beginners about the viruses and other microbes that are linked to ME/CFS, and how to test and treat them. That introductory article for beginners is here, in case it is of any use to you:

    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome — A Roadmap For Testing And Treatment

    merylg and rosie26 like this.
  7. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    I have the same concern, which I believe you brought up when DRACO was being discussed. The tissue was heart tissue in this case - the patients have myocarditis. That tissue is non -dividing so they would have the same issue of a lot of cells dying without being replaced. I didn't see that being mentioned.

    There is a much larger study that i'll try to get today at the library - also with impressive results.
    This could be an important treatment for some of us and I'd like Dr Chias thoughts on it. Is anyone reading this a patient of his ?
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Dr John Chia, in his study on enteroviral infections in ME/CFS patients (see: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is Associated With Chronic Enterovirus Infection of the Stomach, John K S Chia, Andrew Y Chia, 2007), was able to detect both normal (lytic cycle) enteroviruses and noncytopathic enteroviruses in ME/CFS patients.

    The test Chia used for normal enteroviruses was the immunoperoxidase stain, which detects the enterovirus VP1 protein. The VP1 protein is found in the capsid (the outer shell) of enteroviruses.

    I understand that noncytopathic enterovirus RNA was detected in this study by means of a "Qiagen one-step RT-PCR enzyme kit".

    In the study, normal (lytic cycle) enteroviruses were not always found in ME/CFS patients, even when enteroviral RNA had been detected. This finding suggests that noncytopathic enteroviruses, rather than regular (lytic cycle) enteroviruses, may be playing the major role in ME/CFS.
    merylg and alex3619 like this.
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Does an Allergen in the Enterovirus VP1 Protein Cause ME/CFS?

    One important unanswered question in enterovirus-associated ME/CFS is: how does the very low level of enterovirus infection found in ME/CFS patients apparently cause the metabolic chaos that is chronic fatigue syndrome?

    That is to say, how does a feeble chronic enterovirus infection, slowly smoldering away in the body, which creates so few viral particles, and is barely detectable by antibody testing, seemingly cause so much trouble and havoc — a degree of havoc way beyond what the few enteroviral particles found in the tissues should be able to create? How does such a low level infection cause a condition as severe as ME/CFS?


    Noncytopathic enteroviruses are one answer to this question:

    The idea that noncytopathic enteroviruses, hidden within human cells and not detectable by antibody testing, may be the root of all the trouble in ME/CFS is one possible answer to this question. Normal antibody testing does not detect noncytopathic enteroviruses, only regular enteroviruses, and Dr Chia has shown that ME/CFS patients can have very low levels of regular enteroviruses in their body, yet have a substantial noncytopathic enterovirus infection.


    Another possible (though very speculative) answer to this question I'd like to offer relates to an enterovirus–allergen connection I read about in a blog article by Dr Art Ayers:

    Dr Ayers said that the enterovirus VP1 protein contains an allergen. (The VP1 protein forms part of the out shell of enteroviruses). Specifically, Ayers states he has detected an amino acid sequence in the VP1 protein of enteroviruses that he also found in all allergens — allergens such as peanut, ragweed, dust mite, bee venom — as well as in the autoantigens of autoimmune diseases like lupus and multiple sclerosis. Ayer's article is HERE.

    So I was wondering whether such an allergen in the enterovirus VP1 protein might, even at the low level of enteroviral particles present in ME/CFS patients, be precipitating an allergic and/or autoimmune condition in the body which could underpin ME/CFS. You only need a tiny amount of allergen to provoke a large pathological response in the body, so this might explain how the low levels of enteroviral particles found in ME/CFS patients can precipitate such a significant pathological response.

    I wrote a thread HERE about the observation that enterovirus VP1 protein contains an allergen.
    alex3619, Sparrowhawk and merylg like this.
  10. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Senior Member

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    Damn Hip, that is one zinger of a theory. For them of us who have always had allergies and high inflammatory response to the outside world, not a bad hypothesis.

    Layman leap in logic here, but might things like vaccinations trigger or exacerbate this? I am just looking for a link to those who say their illness was precipitated by a vaccination. Add other system irritants such as stress, food intolerances, pollution, mold exposure, whatever to the mix and it could be that we have an additive situation, where allergy to foriegn but internal proteins is the perpetuating factor that keeps the body immune response so tilted and tired.
  11. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    On possible VP1 and allergens, it depends on the 3D folding of the protein. An amino acid sequence is not enough, its the 3D structure including electric charges that create the target for antibodies. Its about the exact shape and charge of the amino acids on the outside of the protein. However there is one condition under which all allergens are the same in this respect: proteins that lose their 3D structure are called denatured. They become long strings of amino acids, not folded up into a ball. If conditions exist for that to happen, and we develop antibodies to similar proteins, then they would cross react.

    I have dust mite allergy, and coxsackie B3 virus by antibody assay, though that test was done 24 years ago now.

    Once we start targeting the protein though, we could develop autoantibodies to other parts of the sequence. These might cross react with many endogenous proteins.
    Sparrowhawk and Hip like this.
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Sparrowhawk The only vaccination that seems to very occasionally precipitate ME/CFS is the hepatitis B vaccination (although the new HPV vaccination has been linked to precipitating a ME/CFS-like condition).

    So the question here would be: why does the hepatitis B vaccination very occasionally seem to precipitate ME/CFS, but other vaccines do not? What is special about the hepatitis B vaccination that makes it seemingly able to sometimes trigger ME/CFS?

    I do tend to think that ME/CFS generally arises from a combination of causal factors, rather than just one factor. In my opinion, the co-factors I think are most likely playing a causal role in precipitating ME/CFS are:

    • Already having irritable bowel syndrome (refs: 1 2 3) or small intestine bacterial overgrowth (refs: 1 2).
    • Already having interstitial cystitis or overactive bladder. (refs: 1 2 3 4).
    • Significant exposure to mold toxins (refs 1 2).

    All of the above have been shown to occur more frequently in ME/CFS patients (refs given). I myself had IBS and overactive bladder prior to catching the enterovirus infection that seemed to trigger my ME/CFS. I suspect my ME/CFS arose due to the combined effects of all these three factors, though my hunch is that my enterovirus infection played the major casual role (this is because I had both IBS and overactive bladder for many years with developing ME/CFS; but soon after catching an enterovirus, I began to descend into ME/CFS).

    Other observed (but very rare) triggers of ME/CFS include: physical trauma (particularly a motor vehicle accident), major surgery, meningitis, and certain focal infections, particaulry jaw bone infections. Hepatitis B vaccination would fit into this list of very rare triggers.

    Silicone (when used for breast and other implants, as well as in silicone injections) can very rarely cause a ME/CFS-like illness, as can exposure to significant amounts of organophosphate or pyrethroid pesticides.
    Sparrowhawk likes this.
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    A video of a presentation given by Dr John Chia, detailing his work with oxymatrine and intravenous interferon treatments for ME/CFS, and his research into the double stranded RNA enterovirus infection (aka: the non-cytopathic enterovirus infection) he thinks is a primary cause of ME/CFS, is to be found >> HERE.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
    Emootje likes this.

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