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Q: How long does increased potassium demand last?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Victronix, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Just wondering, how long have people been addressing potassium demands due to methylfolate / methylcobalamin?

    I've been taking B-12 for several years (6000 of methyl B-12, 2000 of adenosyl/hydroxy) but now that I've started on a small amount of methylfolate, the potassium demand seems like it's more intense and going to go on for much longer than it was for B-12, and I see people on here talking about "months" that they've been on large potassium dosages.

    Does the potassium need decrease gradually? Does it continue the same for months? I'm wondering what people's experiences have been. Thanks.
     
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    When I tried high doses of mfolate last year, the increased need for K went on for more than 6 months, and didn't improve until I lowered the dose.
     
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  3. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    How much potassium are people taking, anyway? I see a lot of discussion of those little 99mg tablets, which are approximately 0.25% of the RDA and so tiny a dose as to be insignificant. I take potassium in the form of low-sodium salt in my water bottle, which gives me around 1.8g sodium and 1.2g potassium throughout the day.
     
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  4. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I found that it goes on longer than you expect it to. I still take both B12 and potassium, but at lower doses now. Sometimes I dont take the B12 but I still take the potassium.
     
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  5. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Thanks. I've only been needing to take potassium gluconate for a couple of weeks since starting the methylfolate again, but it's been difficult to get used to, in terms of being willing to take a lot of something that has so many cautions around it, and the logistics of it, the water, the food, the timing, etc. And I seem to be needing a lot. It seemed to be getting a little better after about 2 weeks, but then I got my period and it greatly worsened again for a day, so I sort of panicked -- when will this end!

    So thanks. Sounds like probably never, to a lesser degree. I will adapt. One benefit to all this is that I've learned to recognize low potassium deficiency symptoms in myself, which is probably more important than most people realize. I recently read a news article on a study linking resting heart rate with longevity, and I know potassium affects heart rate, although not really resting. I wondered if it could play a role in long term health. Vitamins always have almost nothing in them.
     
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was taking 1000 mg (not counting food), but I realized that my symptoms weren't from low potassium so I'm only taking a couple hundred now. I probably don't need any potassium since my methylation dose is so low, but I'll probably continue take some just in case. I found an interesting article on potassium deficiency. Among other things, it suggests that stress and metal toxicity could play a role in potassium deficiency. Also, magnesium and zinc deficiency could make it more difficult to raise potassium levels.
    http://www.naturalnews.com/022589_potassium_diet_deficiency.html
    According to the Eck Institute, "Many people assume that a high sodium/potassium ratio indicates an excessive salt intake. While possibly true, in many instances salt eating has little impact upon the sodium/potassium ratio. A high ratio frequently occurs in people who consume no salt whatsoever! The main causes of a high sodium/potassium ratio are excessive aldosterone secretion due to stress or anger, toxic metals or a zinc and magnesium deficiency. Salt-eating plays a secondary role.
     
  7. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    But then the Linus Pauling links says:
    A friend of mine said I should never link to Natural News because it has a lot of bogus claims. I've generally avoided it since then, so I never really looked into it.
     
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The quote I posted never said that sodium/potassium isn't affected by excessive salt intake. It just says that there are other possible causes. Magnesium deficiency and aldosterone can also affect potassium levels.
    http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/18/10/2649.full
    Magnesium deficiency is frequently associated with hypokalemia. Concomitant magnesium deficiency aggravates hypokalemia and renders it refractory to treatment by potassium. Herein is reviewed literature suggesting that magnesium deficiency exacerbates potassium wasting by increasing distal potassium secretion. A decrease in intracellular magnesium, caused by magnesium deficiency, releases the magnesium-mediated inhibition of ROMK channels and increases potassium secretion. Magnesium deficiency alone, however, does not necessarily cause hypokalemia. An increase in distal sodium delivery or elevated aldosterone levels may be required for exacerbating potassium wasting in magnesium deficiency.
     
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Also, this from dbkita about potassium/sodium balance. I really do appreciate his detailed answers to many of my questions.
     
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  10. mominmo

    mominmo

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    I've had the symptoms for 2 months and they became so severe that I quit taking methyl B12, folate, and the high potency B's. I felt soooo much better within a few days. The burning/tingling in my hands, feet, and mouth had improved, too. I read that some people can't handle the methyl B12 and should try the old cyano instead. I took a 2500 sublingual and within a couple hours that burning and tingling had increased significantly. This is what I was taking 4 years ago (give or take) and had no neuro symptoms from it that I recall. Maybe it's because I'm taking no folic acid with it at all?

    If I could just be sure that these symptoms are healing, I would be ok. I wonder if I need to take even more or if I have an induced deficiency. I was taking a lot of folate and B vitamins and it wasn't helping though. I'm hoping the low potassium symptoms don't return because I just can't handle anymore. My plan is to let the PN symptoms disappear completely (it won't take long), then try the cyano with a basic B supplement (nothing as high level as B Right). If I'm still suffering, I'll try a smaller dose. Even 1000 mcg of the methyl was killing me.
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    If a person can't handle methylcobalamin, then they should take hydroxocobalamin (not cyanocobalamin). Cyanocobalamin breaks down into cyanide. Also, as far as how much and what type of B12 you can tolerate depends on how much methylfolate and/or additional methyl donors you're taking. Some people can't even tolerate 200 mcg methylfolate and 250 mcg methylcobalamin while others take 5000 mcg of each. B2/R5P and B6/P5P aren't methyl donors, but they will increase methylation. What dosages of methylcobalamin and methylfolate were you taking? And also what about other methyl donors and B2/R5P and B6/P5P?
     
  12. mominmo

    mominmo

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    I wrote a long reply to this that disappeared. It's kind of how things are going for me since I used the cyano B12 yesterday! But I won't give in to self-pity. ;-) I had read a naturopath saying there was no problem with cyano and that methyl B12 was just the latest craze. I had hoped I might not have such a big reaction to it, but it was just as bad. I was taking 1 5000 Jarrow with 1 B Right (or one w/o folic acid - made no difference) and 1 800 methylfolate. I increased the B Right and methylfolate to twice a day and the low potassium symptoms were worse. The burning/tingling in my mouth, hands, and feet were bad, too.

    I'm not sure what to do. Use tiny amounts and titrate up? Stop completely and wait until low B12 symptoms return so I can get blood levels and a doc's supervision? I just know that I'm done with the side effects. I've put my life on hold for 2 months and I want to get back to it.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    As I said before, some people can't even tolerate 200 mcg of methylfolate so it would be good to start at a low dose. For some reason, the quality of Jarrow is very poor now. I assume you're still absorbing some methylcobalamin. Especially if you were taking a higher dose, but it seems like the reaction was more likely from the methylfolate. Have you tried taking methylcobalamin without any methylfolate? You said 1000 mcg of methylcobalamin was too much, but have you tried that without methylfolate?

    I'd recommend trying the methylcobalamin by itself first to see if you react to it and then start adding the methylfolate. It's also not a good idea to take too much methylfolate without an adequate amount of B12 due to methyl trapping. I'm mentioning this partially because with Jarrow it's hard to know if you're getting a high enough dose. That's why it would be good to take the Jarrow methylcobalamin by itself to see how you react. If you do experience some reaction (positve or negative) then you'll know that you wouldn't have to switch to another brand right away. You can read this thread about what happened with Jarrow's methylcobalamin:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

    Right now, the quality of Jarrow is an unknown. Based on the people's comments in that thread it seems like it's significantly worse, but I don't know if completely worthless. Maybe 5000 or even 2000 mcg of Jarrow would still be enough for sensitive individuals. If you find that 5000 mcg does absolutely nothing then you could either switch to another brand of methylcobalamin. Enzymatic Therapy is the brand most mentioned as far as being a good brand. The other option would be to switch to hydroxocobalamin. Rich actually recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin because some people who tend to overmethylate do better with hydroxocobalamin.

    It would be a good idea to take a b complex without folic acid. Thorne has two b complexes with only 100 mcg methylfolate. There are also some b complexes and multis that only have folinic acid (not folic). Another option would be just to take all your b vitamins individually.
     
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  14. mominmo

    mominmo

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    Thanks for taking so much time to respond! I definitely had low potassium and significant burning/tingling before I started taking the methyl folate. I'm pretty sure that I didn't try the enzymatic B12 without folate. However, I'm thinking I will still have problems because I took the cyano B12 with nothing else and immediately had problems (that I'm still dealing with). I'm going to quit everything for a few weeks because I am going on vacation and I can't be dealing with this. When I get back, do you think I should try titrating up with Jarrow or go straight to hydro?
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    There are some people here with neuropathy. I don't know much about this subject, but for them the tingling might be a good thing. However, there was someone else having the same experience and people said it could also be due to low potassium.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...are-they-caused-by-methylation-healing.15713/

    I just noticed your post where you said you have a B12 deficiency, but not CFS. The people with B12 deficiency symptoms (with or without CFS) are the ones that have the neuropathy symptoms. I generally recommend doing things slowly and starting with low doses because not everyone needs a high dose. I also wouldn't recommend "pushing through" adverse symptoms (especially if they get severe). It might turn out that you can gradually build up to a higher dose (some people can and some people can't). I still can't say for sure whether the burning/tingling is a good thing or a bad thing for you. If it's simply from the low potassium then it would be a bad thing, but if it's part of the B12 deficiency treatment then I'm not sure because I don't know a lot about the subject as I mentioned earlier.

    I'm actually a bit confused as to which B12s you tried and at what dosages (and also which you took with or without methylfolate). You mentioned Jarrow in one of your posts, but then you talked about taking 1000 mcg of methylcobalamin and also about Enzymatic Therapy. You're saying you experienced both the burning/tingling and low potassium with Jarrow 5000 mcg and no methylfolate? And you also experienced the burning/tingling with 2500 mcg cyanocobalamin and no methylfolate, but did you experience low potassium? As far as the low potassium symptoms go, switching to hydroxocobalamin would lower your chance of the experiencing low potassium because it uses up methyl groups to a certain extent which helps prevent overmethylation. However, the burning and tingling might be from the B12 itself. Both hydroxocobalamin and cyanocobalamin convert to methylcobalamin so switching to hydroxocobalamin won't make a difference. And, as I said earlier, the burning and tingling might be a good thing. Even if it is, I'd recommend lowering your dose and gradually building up. You could try taking 1/4 tablet of either Jarrow (1250 mcg) or Enzymatic (250 mcg) with no methylfolate. Based on some of the reports, I'm not sure would be less potent even though Jarrow has 5 times as much.

    Ok, Crux actually posted this in another thread. I'm not sure if you read it or not, but it refers to the treatment of B12 deficiency symptoms:
     
  16. mominmo

    mominmo

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    I've read what Crux said from multiple people, but I think what I question is how it could be "healing" that begins within a few hours of taking the B12? So that leads me to believe that it's either low potassium, another induced deficiency, or just nerve irritation as Crux mentions. I'm not sure about low potassium because when I resolved the other low K symptoms, the burning/tingling persisted. It's possible though.

    Sorry for not making myself clear. I started off taking 5000 Jarrow daily with nothing else but a low level B supplement that I had taken for a long time. I had low potassium symptoms, burning and tingling. I thought folate, B Right and potassium would handle it. Nope. I was also taking the adB12 I should mention. Of everything I've tried, that bothers me the least it seems. For a while I was alternating Jarrow and adB12 and on my adB12 days, I felt much better. After weeks of no relief, I tried increasing folate and B's. Didn't work. I then tried 1000 Enzymatic Therapy. No change in any of the symptoms. I was taking folate and B's with it though. Finally I tried 2500 cyano B12 with no B's or folate. No difference, though I would say the nerve symptoms were a little less severe when I tried it versus the Jarrow 5000. Low potassium symptoms were just as bad.

    After giving myself 3 weeks off, I will try 1/4 tab of the 1000 Enzymatic therapy and see how I feel. I'll check in. Thanks again for talking with me even though I don't have CFS.
     
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Everyone is welcome here. We're all sick people trying to get healthy. It seems there are some people who say they have B12 deficiency, but not CFS. Others say they have both. And others say they only have CFS. According to Rich, most people with CFS have a "functional B12 deficiency", but this seems to be different somehow. Or maybe the symptoms are different. I also wonder why some people have the deficiency symptoms, but not CFS while others have both. I'm trying to understand what's going on. This technical stuff isn't my area of expertise, but I still would like to understand as much as I can.

    I think the main thing is to start at a low dose and listen to what your body is telling you. Sometimes discomfort is part of the healing, but only you know how much is too much. When in doubt I'd err on the side of caution. I doubt 1/4 Enzymatic is going to cause problems, but if you feel like taking a break that's your choice. I can understand why you wouldn't want to have to deal with this during your vacation.

    I don't know how adenosylcobalamin is involved as far as B12 deficiency goes. A certain amount will be converted into methylcobalamin so it will increase methylation to a certain extent. Adenosylcobalamin is good for other things such as ATP and possible inflammation. A certain amount of hydroxocobalamin is converted into adenosylcobalamin, but some people taking hydroxcobalamin might also benefit from taking adenosylcobalamin in addition.
     
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  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mominmo,

    Cyanob12 is a was a lab mistake. MeCbl/AdoCbl are about 100 to 10,000 times more effective. Cyanocbl works for a few of the symtpoms a little bit at best. The potassium demand in a range up to about 3000mg a day seems to be pretty normal in all this for the people who heal. The huge amounts , 10,000 mg or so, are very excessive and is something different from healing apparently triggered by b2 is some people. Both Natural b12s are needed along with methylfolate and cofactors.

    I had read a naturopath saying there was no problem with cyano and that methyl B12 was just the latest craze.

    Massive ignorance speaking.
     

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