Professor & patients' paper on the solvable biological challenge of ME/CFS: reader-friendly version
Simon McGrath provides a patient-friendly version of a peer-reviewed paper which highlights some of the most promising biomedical research on ME/CFS ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Oxymatrine - What to expect in the way of fatigue and how long?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Jennifer J, May 24, 2017.

  1. Jennifer J

    Jennifer J Senior Member

    Messages:
    851
    Likes:
    4,236
    Southern California
    Hi, Everyone.

    I will be trying oxymatrine :thumbsup: after I see some specialists to cover other medical (as these things go, this isn't going to take place soon :( ). Anyways, I've heard that it makes you feel worst before better. I wasn't sure what that means in way of fatigue? And for how long?

    I'm mainly bedbound, alone with no help. I don't know if I can take it without finding some help if it makes me worst than I am. Everything to do with being able to survive day by day is stretched to a point that I don't know if it's possible to stretch it any further without causing more serious problems.

    I'm curious, what your experience or knowledge is about fatigue with oxymatrine, how long will it last, and any suggestions please.

    Thank you for any help. :hug:
     
    Binkie4, flitza, Izola and 2 others like this.
  2. Sancar

    Sancar Sick of being sick ~ and so is my walking buddy

    Messages:
    69
    Likes:
    92
    USA
    Jennifer J. ~ Your situation sounds unfortunately like my own. Stuck at home and alone. It is scary to try something that might make things unbelievably worse when you already feel awful.

    I have tried taking "Equalibriant" the 'oxymatrine blend' that is Dr. Chia's proprietary blend. The most Ive been able to tolerate is 1/4 of a tablet 2 x day. On days when Im really bad off I have to skip taking it. I do have more fatigue and horrible painful gut issues when I take it. From what I've read on the forums 'everyone' is different. Almost everyone has had to start off slowly and build up. I've been taking it that way since October. It's been rough for me to take.

    @Hip mentions Whit Tiger Oximatrine in a few post. I wonder if that would be milder?

    You have my best for your quest to recover...
     
    Jennifer J likes this.
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,336
    Likes:
    14,607
    Some of Dr Chia patient's oxymatrine stories are detailed in this post.

    Another oxymatrine story is detailed here.

    A post summarizing the effects of oxymatrine is to be found here. And there is also some info in this post.
     
    ErdemX, Binkie4, PatJ and 2 others like this.
  4. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

    Messages:
    503
    Likes:
    1,859
    USA
    I'm like @Sancar, and cannot tolerate Equilibrant well without stomach upset/nausea. I restarted it and am at 1 pill 2x's per day, hoping to be able to increase. I do not notice any positive effect from Equilibrant after one month, but it is supposed to take a long time (~1 year) to have an effect.

    Thanks @Hip, will look at some of those links.
     
    Jennifer J and Sancar like this.
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,336
    Likes:
    14,607
    As far as I am aware, if it does work for a patient, oxymatrine / Equilibrant get results after a month or two. Unless you read somewhere that it can take longer?

    Although if oxymatrine works for you, and you experience improvements after a month or wo taking it, Dr Chia says you still need to keep taking it, else you will replase. For males, that means taking it for around a year or so, after which it should be OK to stop. But for women, I understand that you may need to take it indefintely, otherwise you risk relapse.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
    sb4, Sancar, flitza and 1 other person like this.
  6. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

    Messages:
    503
    Likes:
    1,859
    USA
    I could be wrong here as so much information is anecdotal, but as I'm reading some of past threads you posted Dr. Chia has studied Equilibrant. (Why do we not have a single condensed clearing house for all of this information? So frustrating as there is good info out there, just difficult to sift through.) I wonder if the Equilibrant was working before when I had titrated up to more pills per day as I had daily fevers. It is interesting that people who respond get sicker, when I first began LDN I had the same experience, especially titrating from 3.0mg to 4.5mg, I felt like I had the flu for a week.

    I'm currently suffering from a cold (haven't had a proper cold in 8 years) and will start to increase my Equilibrant dosage after I get over this cold. I am very curious about what I am doing to be altering my immune response, that availed me to coming down with a cold after all of these years. This approach will also help me notice if increasing Equilibrant affects my baseline.
     
    flitza, Sancar and Jennifer J like this.
  7. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,589
    Likes:
    3,948
    Southern California
    FWIW Chia told me to start with a quarter Equilibrant tab, and increase by a quarter every 10 days. Have only had anxiety as a side effect but everyone is different
     
    Sancar, flitza and Jennifer J like this.
  8. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

    Messages:
    1,886
    Likes:
    5,164
    Canada
    I tried oxymatrine by starting with a low dose and working up to the recommended dose over the course of a week. I stayed on it long enough to use up the bottle but didn't notice any effects, good or bad.
     
    ErdemX, Jennifer J and Sancar like this.
  9. JES

    JES Senior Member

    Messages:
    450
    Likes:
    717
    It's supposed to work in a month or two, nothing I've read from Dr. Chia suggests it would take longer. He has also warned that if you quit taking Equilibrant/Oxymatrine in the middle, you might not benefit from it as much the second time you start it. The success rate of Equilibrant that Dr. Chia has been quoted is a little under 50%, but in practice, it seems much lower among members of this forum. @gregh286 has achieved a remission with high-dose Equilibrant and Vitamin D (see post here), but it's once of the few success stories.
     
  10. Frustrated

    Frustrated

    Messages:
    59
    Likes:
    65
    I've been taking the raw sophora herb and astragalus for almost 2 months and I feel like I've started to improve a bit
     
    flitza and Jennifer J like this.
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,336
    Likes:
    14,607
    Yes, and the issue may be getting worse as more threads are posted on PR over time, possibly making it harder to find condensed information. A good place to condense this information would be on MEpedia, whose Equilibrant page is found here (with very little info on it). But I understand that too few ME/CFS patients volunteer their time to edit MEpedia. It needs volunteers.



    I understand that 30% of his patients make major improvements on oxymatrine / Equilibrant, and another 20% make minor improvements, totaling to 50%. But I think this is in his patients with proven enterovirus infections. Patients with ME/CFS associated with other viruses such as EBV may not necessary gain benefit from oxymatrine.

    On this forum, I am not sure if the people trying oxymatrine have proven enterovirus infections; blood testing for chronic enterovirus is expensive (nearly $900 for both the coxsackievirus B and echovirus tests at ARUP Lab), or complicated (the Dr Chia's stomach biopsy enterovirus test costs $250, but you have to first find a gastroenterologist willing to perform the biopsy with an endoscope).
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
    Jennifer J, Sancar, Diwi9 and 2 others like this.
  12. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    124
    I am a patient of Dr. Chia's and have had a good response to Equilibrant so far. I've been on it about 6 months.
    My insurance covered most of the cost of the blood tests.
     
    sb4, ErdemX, Jennifer J and 2 others like this.
  13. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    124
    I started Equilibrant about 6 months ago. Sadly, I wasn't journaling at that time but my recollection is that my flu-like symptoms got worse and I believe my PEM as well. I think that lasted about 1-2 months and then I started to have improvement. Flu-like symptoms are now almost non-existent. Severe PEM lasting a day or two don't really happen. I still get it, but it lasts only hours usually. The last week or so I've been more fatigued but that may be due to LDN which I started about a month ago.

    I am VERY sensitive to meds and supps and started at 1/4 tab per day. I'm now up to 1 tab twice a day, finally.

    As far as stomach upset goes, I take it with food (food before and after) and a glass of water and I haven't had any nausea. I do have IBS-D but that has gradually improved a bit.
    Good luck to you with this.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,336
    Likes:
    14,607
    So I take it you were positive for active infections with either coxsackievirus B or echovirus? Did your enterovirus titers go down during the course of your oxymatrine treatment?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
    Binkie4, flitza and Jennifer J like this.
  15. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    124
    I was positive for Echovirus. I haven't been taking it long enough for him to want repeat titers. I believe they'll be done before my next visit in 4 months. I do think it has had an effect on the virus though because at the beginning I was much sicker in an 'infected' kind of way. Constant sore throat, hypothermia, lymphadenopathy etc., etc. And all that is practically gone. Had a bit of it again when I started LDN about 5 weeks ago...
     
    sb4, Binkie4, halcyon and 2 others like this.
  16. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    124
    I just read this again. I am a woman so INDEFINITELY? Any idea why it's different for men and women? Or is that just an observation of his?
     
    Binkie4, Sancar and Jennifer J like this.
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,336
    Likes:
    14,607
    It's an observation of Dr Chia. I saw it in one of the video interviews given by Dr Chia, which is detailed in this post.

    I don't know the reason, but Dr Chia says men can stop taking oxymatrine after 3 to 6 months, but women have to continue it, otherwise they relapse. Dr Chia did not say how long they need to continue it, so I have assumed he means indefinitely, but am not entirely sure.

    Perhaps if you can find any female patients of Dr Chia on this forum, you might ask them if they know anything more about it.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
    Binkie4 and Jennifer J like this.
  18. Jennifer J

    Jennifer J Senior Member

    Messages:
    851
    Likes:
    4,236
    Southern California
    I've been meaning to thank you for awhile, @Sancar, @Hip, @flitza , @Diwi9, @Jesse2233, @JES, @PatJ and @Frustrated, thank you for responding to this thread and sharing your experiences and information with me and everyone else who views it.

    Sorry brain is too mushy to respond to your posts in a more personal manner. I really appreciate your help, it's helpful :), and @Hip thank you for the links, too. :thumbsup:
     
    Jesse2233, Binkie4, Diwi9 and 3 others like this.
  19. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes:
    124
    Keep us in the loop about your experience with oxymatrine or Equilibrant.
     
    Binkie4, Sancar and Jennifer J like this.
  20. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

    Messages:
    503
    Likes:
    1,859
    USA
    As an update to others interested in Equilibrandt, I wanted to share that I have very positively responded to treatment with oxymatrine. After an initial worsening of symptoms, including cold sweats, fever, and vomiting, my energy has been restored. I went from functioning at about 35-40% to 70% within one day and have sustained that for one week so far. Two weeks ago I was housebound with constant bedrest. Yesterday, I washed my car, drove, and socialized. So far symptoms that remain: mild brain fog, headaches, mild should neck pain, loss of appetite, and insomnia. It feels like something switched in my immune system as even my seasonal allergies have significantly reduced. I'm hoping to see Dr. Chia, he's on to something, at least for my situation.
     
    Little Bluestem, sb4, ErdemX and 8 others like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page